doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gunfight Friday - Round #1

I've owned both a 20 ga. BSS Sporter (straight grip/small BT) and a 20 ga. Win. 23 Pigeon at the same time, both bought used in the late '80s, both 26". The BSS 20 frame is scaled down noticeably smaller than the BSS 12. The 23 frame has the same dimensions as the 12 except for the size of the fences. The BSS was almost half a pound lighter -- 6 lb./9 oz. vs. 7 lbs. for the 23 with it's vent rib and choke tubes. Similar quality fit and finish for both, but the BSS Sporter wood has an oil finish, the 23 is hard gloss. Though less engraving coverage on the standard grade BSS, I like its cut engraving better than the rolled engraving on the 23. I paid $250 less for the BSS in the same condition as the 23. I sold the 23 pretty quickly, still own and like the BSS.

I bought the BSS 12 ga. Sporter 28" new in 1985 for $550, about the same time my brother bought a 12 ga. 23 with 25.5" barrels for $950. Prices for both were about the same amount below listed retail. At the time the 23's choke tubes protruded half an inch beyond the barrels for 26" total length. The 23 was half a pound lighter at just over 7 lbs. -- only an ounce heavier than my 20 ga., and much nearer the light end of the 12 ga. spectrum than my BSS. I stopped using my BSS for birds after a couple seasons, but still like to shoot it for clays.

BTW, the standard M-23 had a coin finish frame and was called Pigeon Grade. The pictured 23 was a more expensive version introduced near the end of production, I think called the "Classic".

The 12 ga. M-23 I like is a European Pigeon Grade version I bought used in the early 90s. It's very unlike the U.S. models. Weight is 6 lbs./10 oz., with 70 mm. (2-3/4") chambers, fixed choke 28" barrels with solid swamped rib, splinter forend with ebony tip, slender straight stock with long tang and checkered rosewood buttplate. Engraving pattern also is different. I've shot this gun a lot over a lot of years with no problems. Here are a few pics.

Jay

In 1980, I wandered in to the gunsmithing area at Champlin Arms, in Enid, Oklahoma (I was stationed at a nearby base there), struck up a conversation with a now very well known London apprenticed gunmaker (often video'ed on a gunsmith supply company website). I asked about the project at hand, and he showed his work in progress BSS.

A client had wanted a new boxlock custom with two sets of barrels. This was being filled with parts of two new BSSs. I questioned the action and basis of the gun...and was told that there is no finer boxlock anywhere at any price.

That's enough for me...

Chas, that gun looks like it is NEW! I've seen new guns that didn't look as nice as that one.
Mine all end up with a beauty mark in 'em somewhere.
That said, I'm not going to run out and buy a 23, American or European spec.

Best,
Ted

Ted, the pics are pretty old and not real sharp, stock has plenty of light dings, and the finish where cheeked has worn thin and been re-freshed multiple times. The pad too shows lots of wear. Most of the guns I've carried as much as this one show a lot of bluing wear on the bottom tang, but this on has some kind of black finish (anodized?) on the trigger guard/tang and toplever that doesn't show it. Only thing I don't like about this 23 is the unusually thin comb -- I tend to get my cheek firmly into the stock and this one can bite me.

Knowing your strong preference for double triggers, I'd be disillusioned if you expressed any interest in a 23, or any other single trigger gun.

Jay

One significant difference between the 23 and the BSS: With the latter, there were only 2 models, Standard (PG/BT) and Sporter (str/SBT). That is, if you exclude the BSS Sidelock, which is a totally different gun. In contrast, there were a bunch of different versions of the 23, some lighter (as noted above) and some heavier (like the Heavy Duck). But the BSS in general was not a light gun. A 12ga with 30" barrels (available in the Standard configuration only I think, and not often seen) is the real heavyweight, but might make a nice sxs Sporting Clays gun, with choke tubes installed.

Never owned a 23 and can't recall for sure, but I think the trigger on those guns is inertia-operated. The BSS has a mechanical trigger, and for a ST on a gun that's not very expensive, it's a pretty good one. A lot of people think the 23 trigger leaves a good bit to be desired.

I've owned them all, BSS, 23, SKB, straight and pistol grips. The Japanese doubles are great using guns. You just have to find one you like. I have kept a BSS 20 with 28 inch barrels and Briley chokes I had stocked for a sporting clays gun, a Miroku pre BSS, pre Daly, double trigger 20 weighing in at an even 6 lbs with 28 inch barrels, and my never to be sold Grouser, an SKB model 100 20 ga. weighing 5 lbs 12 oz. (a niche gun). The SKB is a great gun for an old man--in my late 30's, I could hunt and sometimes hit Grouse with a Ruger Red Label. Those days and reflexes are gone! I have loved the light guns since 60. Today's best value? Either the BSS Sidelock or a Chas. Daly/Western Field Miroku with double triggers, for a lightweight carrying gun, the SKB 100--don't care much for the rest of the SKBs, just not as robust as the Miroku and Winchester guns.

Larry, the 23 trigger is mechanical too, not inertia.

You've often commented that 23 triggers have a lot of creep. I don't doubt you've found some that do, but mine and my brother's don't have unusual slack, and the triggers on our guns have been trouble-free for 25 years.

I think the 23 triggers are an adaptation of the Win. 101 trigger design. I know guys who've shot the original 101s gunning for springer field trials for 30+ years with no trigger issues. But maybe they'll have trouble this spring.

Jay

Thanks for the correction on the mechanical/inertia thing, Charlie.

I expect "unusual slack" is a personal thing, and may be the result of sxs shooters who are more used to DT guns vs ST. Just playing with the guns I have readily at hand, I find that the DT guns have little or no slack. The ST example I have is an SKB, which I think has a pretty good trigger. But it has more slack than any of my DT guns. Got comments about 23 triggers when I was doing an article on the gun years ago. I recall talking to a shop that did quite a bit of work on 23's. They said they could give the trigger a lighter pull but couldn't do anything with the slack. I don't recall hearing about any issues with 23 triggers other than the slack/creep, as far as function goes.

Hmm. A M23 in .410. I own one. Lovely gun. I hate .410s. That would throw my vote to the Browning. Unless I could have the M23 in a larger gauge.

You could likely get a dealer who has a 23 in a bigger gauge to trade with you.

Best,
Ted