doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Professional Lookers

Good for you Mike, but in my opinion don't worry about it. Could be the purpose here wasn't for sales or business advise, but to send a message to folks on some list.

I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about double guns, and since his wife won't let him buy one more often than about every five years he has adopted the strategy of looking only for specimens that are so rare, nearly non-existant, that he never finds one. He is always asking me to keep my eyes open for an British 16 ga. with original 70mm chambers, 31 inch nitro-proved damascus barrels with quarter and half original configuration choke. Must have nicely figured french walnut at or under 6 lbs., regularly serviced but no evidence of the screws having been turned.

Many years ago, my then-wife accepted a sales presentation offer typically common around military bases. We had to watch a presentation in order to receive some minor prize. Since I was newly married and hadn't realized yet how poor my judgement was in spouse selection, I consented to go.

It was a typical scam where they try to sell you around $100 of photo-finishing for around $1200. The attempted "hook" was that anyone could take "professional" quality pictures, it was only the finishing that mattered. As a one-time freelance photographer, I saw the scam immediately. Needless to say, I wouldn't "Bite". The pitches got progressively more intense, ending with the classic "Ben Franklin" close. This was all accompanied by beseeching looks from my wife making it clear she thought we'd be passing up on the deal of a lifetime. I said "No".

When they gave us our trinket, I pointed out the fact that they were trying to sell $100 of photo finishing for $1200. They were not happy with my observation.

I guess that qualifies me as a "Looker"...

There's lots of folks out there trying to sell $600 worth of gun for $2500. I'm generally talking about lower condition pieces, and I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular. Certainly not to high condition sellers here. When it's pointed out about the low condition guns, dealers are not usually happy about that either. It's just an experience driven observation.

Case in point; I was in a guitar shop many years ago when a fellow in dirty clothes and pretty disheveled looking came in and started looking at a particularly nice and rather expensive Gibson acoustic. The guy didn't really play very well, and after quite a while the clerk said, "Why don't you take that with you?" "Think I will," he said, and pulled out a wad of bills from his shirt pocket. He paid cash and walked out the door with it.

I can easily understand the frustration with the time it takes to answer questions for the many unlikely buyers.

Daryl is dead on correct that many questions people ask are the result of poor descriptions and incomplete photos. It amazes me how often even top end sellers fail to give the details of a gun on the most basic level (i.e. weight, chamber length, choke dimensions, min wall thickness) While I understand it takes time to have all the details laid out it would reduce questions.

Further on photos, simple depiction of barrel and receiver flats as well as other details would make life much easier for all involved.

At minimum the following should be available in a high end gun description.

Maker
Serial Number (you can blank the last two digits, but it is very useful to know on some makes)
Chamber length (current and original and if lengthened whether reproofed)
Triggers (Single<selective or not><type of single if known> , Double, Front Articulated)
Ejectors/Extractor (if ejector if type of ejector is known i.e. southgate, baker etc)
Safety (automatic or not)
Barrel Length (and if original-photo of muzzles ends most questions)
Current Bore Diameter
Current Choke Dimensions (note if different from stamped markings)
Minimum Wall Thickness Right and Left
Barrel Weight (for Belgian guns so marked original versus current tells a lot)
Balance point in Relation to Hinge pin
Type of Grip (amazingly photos often are so bad you can't tell)
Type of forend and forend release
Actual stock dimension to include cast and pitch
LOP to wood on guns with pads
Actual Weight of gun (I have discovered the average gun I have brought weighs 1 or 2 ounces above advertised and that is on a calibrated postal scale)
Date of Manufacture if known
Engraver name if known (signed)
Original finish if actually known (I never cease to be amazed how many guns are stated original that obviously are not)

Complete terms of the sale and return policy as well as terms of payment or possible layaway

I realize this is a big list but it will cure most questions and leave few additional questions.

One more thought on window shopping vs. buying guns, I do feel guilty when asking questions on a gun I know it is unlikely I will buy. That said unlikely is not impossible and on at least two occasions I came back after not buying either gun, buying them a year or more later when they got listed again (Christophe Double Rifle, Christophe 20ga SxS)

Window shopping guns is another form of hunting, I drive by a lot of country before I get out of my truck.

Dash it Grouse Guy, I just recently sold something close to what you were looking for; a 16 bore English gun with 70mm. chambers but this one had 30 inch steel barrels.

I keep a separate gun and fishing rod buying account that is separate to the household account. At the moment it is quite low, due to recent purchases, but will build again. I contacted the importer of Chapuis guns to see if they can supply a straight hand stocked over/under with double triggers in 12 bore. I did point out in the e-mail that I would not be in a position to buy until later this year or early next year. I do intend to go ahead as they can supply what I want. A 'looker' at that stage but a purchaser in the near future. I stated my case and the reply was polite and that is why I will do business. Contrast that with a gun shop in the south west of England when I went in in a rare flush with cash moment and in a position to buy something interesting. The gist of the reply to my question was that I could not afford what he had on offer. I deal in cash for guns so just showed him what I had on me and walked out. He lost a customer. I was on holiday at the time and dressed fairly casual. Maybe he learned something from that. I like to think so. I've never been back to find out. Lagopus.....

Back in the 60's my father had a cousin who would hitch hike across the country. He looked like a bum most of the time. One day on one of his journeys he walked into a Caddy dealer in GA. Seems he was dressed in Levi's, torn t-shirt and Converses. Not a dime on him. Owner of the dealership walked up to him and offered him two bucks for food. He asked how much for the convertible caddy? Given the price asked if he would take a check. No Id, no check on him even.

Sorry I'd like to but you need to see a banker for that much money. To humor him the dealer said see if the bank across the street could help him. Over to the bank he went. There he asked the bank to call his bank collect and see if they would ok a check for the car? On faith they called collect, gave the bank his name and the bank took the call. The manager ask them to describe him. Told in hushed tone he looked like a bum, Levi's, t-shirt, tennis shoes, no socks and no hat. The manager told them he was good for any check up to 250k and the description was a match. The GA bank cashed a blank check for him and he went back to the caddy dealer and bought the car. Half an hour later he was back in the bank to cash a second check for fifty dollars for gas money. As a small boy I saw that car for years until he gave it to a busty blond who left him and kept the car.

Sometimes looker turn into buyers but so rare that most hear about then for decades. Problem is that a looker with money is going to spend very quickly once he makes up his mind. You got to be I the right place at the right time or all you'll ever see are lookers.

What Jon describes is called the "Frayed collar and cuff" crowd around here. Scions of lumber barons, and automobile dynasties. Young people, born retired, and wanting to fit in.
It's why I preach clarifying questions. They do no harm, they help to get a dialogue going, and you can find out relative warmness to purchase.
You won't know it's one of the Ford family until someone mentions my "Uncle Bill".
It should never be a bother to be polite to a potential customer. How about, "Tell me about your sporting life. What's been your best experience so far?"

As they say, "People love to buy, they hate to be sold."

Here's an example that happened just today. A friend is looking for a Vintage double for me to restore for him. I found one. I called the seller yesterday and asked all the usual questions, especially about potential faults, both the one's visible in the pictures, as well as the one's alluded to in the description. Then I asked about the non-visible or non-described ones. I walked the guy on the phone through the "Off Face/Loose" check, and he assured me that the action was fairly tight, with only a tiny bit of play. So far, so good. Today, my friend called and got a different guy on the phone. It appears that in reality the barrels in fact rattle when the gun is shaken. I doubt the guy I was talking to even took the gun off the rack, let alone removed the forend. Bottom line is we're still looking for a restoration piece. This was not a small seller. It was a storefront gun dealer.

John:
You will remember a gentleman whose initials were HS. He was my hunting,
fishing and shotgun mentor for many years. For about 20 years we had a couple of tables at the Houston Gun Collectors Association shows. This was before the majority of items on display were handguns and strategic rifles. His wares were always in good condition and reasonably priced. You in fact bought some doubles from him. And he from you. He had a good number of Spanish guns and Berettas. We took one particular high grade AYA to those show for years. There was one looker who stopped by our table at least once a show, often two or three times, to admire the gun, always wandering off saying he would be back.
After about 5 years of this HS scratched through the price on the hang tag and raised it 25%, when he saw our looker walking down the aisle. The chap noted that the gun had been priced lower since he first looked at it 5 years before. HS told him that he discovered the gun had been priced in error. The looker pulled out a wad of cash and bought the AYA. People are strange.