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Originally Posted By: ben-t
Gentlemen,

My position on this subject has, for the most part, already been expressed by many here. I am responding to be counted among those who have expressed dismay at the notion that the "gun culture" had anything of consequence to do with this tragedy. First- I would point out that the perpetrator, I believe, only owned his guns for two months and if when he was suspected of mental problems by his professors had been properly examined, may never have been able to buy them. Second- the anti gun culture was definately involved here! They made the serious decision to mandate the campus be gun free and then failed in the implied promise to protect those on campus. It is my firm opinion that once this decision was made the college administration and campus police became directly liable for the deaths of the innocent students and faculty by their halfway measures. What they did compares to tying the hands and feet of some one trusting you and then taking them for a ride in a boat with one big structural flaw. I am furious of the lack of action taken by the police in this matter! To commit these unarmed people to this environment then stand outside waiting for the gunshots to abate is criminal! The very idea that those who promised to protect these students did not even enter the building until this crazy man had done his worst, is to me a betrayal simular to a parent abusing a child! And then for some to blame it on a "gun culture" to evade their own complicity in this event is shameful. I use as support for my position the surviving victims on the Virgina Tech campus, young men and women the very age of our troops in Middle East. Our soldiers are rushing through doorways into darkened rooms in attempts to save lives and bring peace, while here at home we tell them "you don't need to worry we will protect you"- then stand out under the trees and wait. This is the standard that we are to live by? They will tell us that the problem they have protecting us is what goes on outside the campus boundry, the city limit, or the state line. Does anyone really believe that once the anti gun culture has its way we will be inside and safe? Did you get or anthrax vaccine yet? Your lawmakers did.

Kurt


Is this the state of police training today? I would have thought that some immediate action would be SOP. Sad if it is the state of the art.

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These star wars looking police would be better off writing-up leash law violations.
The cellphone video showed a lot of huddling, all the while shots were ringing out.
Dressed to kill, and waiting for coffee?

Last edited by Lowell Glenthorne; 04/18/07 07:25 AM.
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The police have no obligation to protect you. The only obligation they have is to arrest the person that killed you and make sure your body gets hauled away. The Idea that police are hired to protect the population is another big lie.

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Originally Posted By: ben-t
I might be wrong, but if he had been legally determined to be mentally unstable it would have shown up during the instant background check.

Only if he'd been adjudged mentally incompetent by a court and committed to a mental institution.
And it is MUCH harder to do that today than 30 years ago, before advocates of rights for the mentally handicapped wrecked the mental health institutions of the USA, loosing a flood of "street people" or "homeless" on us. They were, supposedly, to have their needs met by community mental health centers which either were not funded or which they were too crazy to use.
Thirty years ago Cho's deranged, violent writings may have been enough for a competency hearing in Virginia. Not today.

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Since I cannot express myself as fully or as elegently as I should I would like to offer some of the following thoughts by few interesting individuals.

“Though defensive violence will always be a ’sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men.” - St. Augustine

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.” - John F. Kennedy

“If householders were required by law to own and know how to use revolvers, burglary would cease. It is an act of good citizenship to make crime dangerous — an encouragement of crime to remain defenseless.” - 1904 Iver Johnson advertisement

“The right to life means nothing without the right to possess the means to protect and defend one’s own life.” - James Mullen

“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama, Tibet

“The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” - Albert Einstein

“The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” - H.L. Mencken

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.” - Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (Hear That Rosie????)

“The said Constitution be never construed …to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” - Samuel Adams

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.” - Plato

“He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” - Jesus, Luke 22:36

I think I will now go to my closet and sell some jeans.

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Gentlemen,

I was called in to substitute teach at a local college prep school at the last minute yesterday morning. Apparently, someone sent a threatening email to faculty, students and administrators the previous evening, with reference to the shootings at VA Tech. I only found out about it during the course of the day after hearing bits of information pass between a few people and following up with questions, because I missed the morning assembly where the issue was presented by the head of school. There were several rent-a-cops present around campus and classes were held as usual. Was I thinking about my cache of long arms being taken away or wishing I was carrying myself? No. I focused on the task at hand and was grateful that it was an uneventful day. All of my kids and I got to go home.

While I strongly support our 2nd amendment rights, neither taking all of our guns away nor arming citizens to the teeth will prevent these kinds of events from occurring. That is not to say that I am simply resigned to accepting them, rather that is much more than a "gun or no gun" issue. And, as several of you have noted, these events are not peculiar to the U.S.

While you continue your discussion and debate, I urge each of you to consider the fellow students, faculty, administrators and police, including the rent-a-cops on that campus and every campus worldwide. If you are so inclined, you might say a prayer and hope that they have many more uneventful days.


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Some try to help. There was off duty NYS Highway Patrolman trying to stop armed robbery at a supermarket. He got shot to death with a .410 by another armed wacko. Someone mentioned Germany (I think the shooting happened in Scotland), I looked at figures from different countries adjusting for population differences and looking at number of serious gun incidients. It boils down to large number and easy availability of firearms. That's the difference, if you choose to have an open mind and adjust for variables.

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I have a son at Va. Tech, he lived in the dorm in question and majored in engineering and had classes in the building in question. My wife is Tech Alumni. We talked about this a lot.

Per my son,

His opinion is that neither greater gun control nor more relaxed carry laws would have made a difference. Both sides of the arguement need to back away from this. It's not about guns it's about a psychopath. It's not about college security it could happen anywhere.

Regarding gun control, it's already easier to get a gun illegally than legally in many places. More laws wont help.

And regarding relaxed carry laws, we have already proven that we cannot insure that guns stay out of the wrong hands so why would we make it easier for potentially bad people from carrying in public? Even a professor carrying on campus increases the liklihood that an upset or angry student might make a grab for a gun and start a confrontation that instead of being ugly becomes deadly. Arming a couple thousand professors to prepare for a once in a billion possibility is illogical. This bad guy flew below the radar, why make it easier for a bunch more guys with the potential for violence to carry or grab a gun off a non LEO academic type?

Personally I know a lot of gun hobbyists that that I don't want carrying in public, and none of them have felony convictions or diagnosed mental problems. Having them own guns and keep them in thier homes, or cased on the way to and from the range or for hunting is fine. Letting them carry concealed is asking for trouble.

So nothing about this tragedy helps either side. It's a wash. No gun owner should try to spin it to their advantage as it only polarizes the issue and helps the antis paint gun owners as rabid and unreasonable.

I'm done,

Jeff


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I'm done, too, Jeff, and thanks. Nova Scotians attend Virginia Tech. One of its faculty phoned to say all our kids were safe, not knowing that his wife, Dr. Jocelyn Novak, had been killed. Both graduated from teachers' college here and taught at Nova Scotia Agricultural College, he a brilliant teacher and researcher and his wife a passionate and dedicated French teacher. We may be separated by wide expanses but none is alone.

Last edited by King Brown; 04/18/07 10:20 AM.
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Originally Posted By: ben-t
I might be wrong, but if he had been legally determined to be mentally unstable it would have shown up during the instant background check.


I believe you are wrong, there is no method that I know of for reporting this in a manner that NICS can use.

I for one see the horrible failures in our mental health-care system on regular basis. As a defense attorney and prosecutor I've come to the conclusion that MUCH of the drug abuse in our rural county is related to self-medication. I've dealt many times with people suffering from major depression, bi-polar disorder, and schizophrenia. I believe that most of them abused street drugs and alcohol in order to deal with their symptoms...one of the more disturbing was the schizophrenic that told me he drank because it quieted the voices.

Generally I believe that there are no gun laws that can or should be enacted at this point to make us safer, with the caveat that any person committed voluntarily or involuntarily for mental health issues is not (apparently) reported on NICS.

The gun grabbers will be yelling for our guns following this. We need to be the ones that the public views as having common sense and a reasonable approach to these issues. We need to make this a fight of logic, and not of emotion.

Todd


Youth is stolen by Wisdom.
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