doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith Quality 2

Been a great weekend, first shot a vintage SxS shoot Saturday and then the wife and I took a trip today to a flea market in PA Sunday
To my surprise came upon a decent condition Quality 2, pretty much all original, tight and on face, lever still to the right, stock not cut, barrels have no pits.
Problems are some dents were taken out poorly in the left barrel a couple inches from the muzzle and the fore end has some small wood loss and the Dogs head insert is missing.
The Damascus barrels are the star pattern. The butt plate states Trap Gun. Extractor gun.
All in all it appear to be a nice early survivor, serial number is 19792, maybe 1888 to 1892 era, patent date is 1882.
Been awhile since I have bought a new to me LC and I am loving it.

John, responded to your post on the L.C. Smith site, but will say again that this is an 1887-88 Syracuse made L.C. Smith. You were not sure of the serial number on the collectors site so I was hoping that you would include it so I could put it in the records, of which you did here.
Is it a 10 gauge as the sideplates are almost touching the breech balls? If a 12 gauge it must be on the heavy frame.
Also how long are the barrels?

This is the first one I have seen with the dogs head for-end escutcheon and the diamond ebony tip. All Syracuse Quality guns and early Hunter Arms guns had the vase shaped ebony tip and no for-end escutcheon except for the very few late ones in the 22,000 serial number range with a diamond shaped ebony escutcheon.

As to the dimples on the receiver frame, no one seems to know what they are. There is speculation that they might have been put there for cocking indicators, but the ones seen have random and scattered serial numbers. I have one in the 20,000 range that has them.

You will find the checkering to be 22-24 lpi for the lowest grade gun made then. the workmanship was first class on these guns.

The Trap gun butt plate was an advertising ploy that they used, they wanted you to know that these guns were good in the field as well as at the trap. Some just has the dog watching the duck fall and below that Syracuse, N.Y.

A very nice find indeed.

David, Thank you very much for all the information. I took the for-end iron off and at first I did not see any serial numbers in the wood as I am used to seeing on my other LC's, looking closer I found the serial number on the breach end of the wood totally behind the iron.
At first look I thought it was a 10 Gauge but it is a 12 gauge with 30" barrels. it is a heavy, solid substantial feeling gun.
I am thinking of picking up one of the reproduction Dogs Head inserts to glue into the for-end and then just leave the gun as is.
John

JDW I have another that you can add to your records. It is serial number 19320 Quality 2 and has the jug shaped for-end escutcheon. It is a 10 ga. Unfortunately the barrels have been cut to 28" and honed very thin. No dimples on mine. Nice find johnr.

Thanks tanky, in looking at my records to add this number, I see that I have it already. You must have given it to be before. Again I thank you for thinking of me.

Terrific find!

Neat John.

Just to clarify; the barrels are what Hunter Arms called "Good Two Rod Damascus"
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17116222
Are there any maker's marks just forward of the flats?

My money is on that forearm wood being a long ago replacement.

The dimples seem to just be a styling touch. Baltimore Arms Co. used them on their C-Grade guns --

John
I'm glad to know that you have rescued that old Smith gun and have given it a good home, but that forend wood really looks odd on this early Syracuse era gun; and based on original repair jobs I've seen, I have difficulty believing that replacement wood represents factory work? Early Quality 2 Smith guns had no inlays (higher grades typically featured metal single or double diamond inlays); the forend wood was mostly covered with very fine checkering, then finished off with the "jug" shaped ebony tip. Early Syracuse forend woods were also wider and shaped differently than those from the Hunter Arms period. Considering that it is not rare to see the occasional early Hunters Arms transition period Grade 2 with a metal forend inlay as Syracuse era parts were used being used up by Hunter, that transition period had ended long before the type forend seen here became standard. The shape and checkering coarseness seen on this forend replacement wood more closely resembles what would be found on a post transition, later production pre-13 Grade 2 extractor gun, or a post-13 Ideal Grade extractor gun with the "push-button" forend release than what should be found on a Syracuse era Smith. Also, on the factory wood repairs I've seen to date, the company did at least duplicate checkering coarseness so that checkered forend and grip panels were consistent. Please don't interpret my comments negatively, as they are based solely on personal observation and experience; and I'm certainly not claiming that the replacement wood on this Smith is not factory work. I'm simply stating that the fact checkering coarseness seen on the replacement forearm fails to match that on the grip is out of character for Hunter Arms factory work; and falls far below the level of quality I've seen demonstrated by the Hunter Arms repair shop on all other examples I've seen.

As an aside, Hunter Arms had a superb and very busy repair shop capable of performing any and all repairs that could possibly be done on or to a Smith gun. I presently own a 10-bore Smith gun that began life as a Quality 2 Syracuse era hammerless. At some point the 32" barrels from this gun were returned to Hunter's repair shop; and although we will never know the extent of the work requested, the end result was an entirely new (save for the salvaged barrels) Grade O hammerless Smith gun. The rib extension of Syracuse era barrels were slightly modified and fitted to a new Hunter Arms era Regular frame (I'm thinking around 1908, because this frame lacks the bushed firing pins feature); but the early roll-style joint check from the Syracuse barrels was retained and the new frame milled and fitted accordingly (the roll joint check feature was dropped from production before 1900). A new fore iron was then made to fit the frame and barrels, but was modified so that the device fore iron used to raise shells for extraction was eliminated (not necessary with the roll-type joint check which served to raise shells and also stop forward barrel rotation); then all new furniture was fitted and checkered in the standard Grade O pattern. The butt plate, grip cap, and forend tip inlays consistent to that production period were incorporated into the finished furniture, the frame engraved to Grade 0 standards; and the gun given new factory finishes. The Quality 2 Grade mark on the barrel flats was over-stamped "O"; and the serial number from the barrel flats was stamped onto the new Grade "O" frame water-table. This the second Repair Shop Smith gun I've seen built from an older set of Syracuse era barrels; the other having begun life as a rare 10-bore "C" Quality hammer gun whose barrels were used to create a straight-gripped Grade 2E 10-bore ejector gun with HOT trigger unit (the frame and stock from the "C" hammer still exist, don't know what became of the original fore iron).

Picture showing Hunter Arms L.C. Smith for-end and Syracuse L.C. Smith for-end.


The Syracuse for-end was also wider and had a snabel type tip.

Much finer checkering on the Syracuse guns.





Here is an ebony diamond on a very used Quality 4 Syracuse gun



This is a very early Fulton s/n 33724, still has the vase shaped ebony tip, but now has the dogs head ebony escutcheon. The barrel lug is now also rounded.



10 gauge Quality 2 s/n 20194 with the metal inlay.