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Joined: Jan 2002
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Maxey, I have similar marks (other than the date code) on a Francotte sidelock from 1925. Mine also has the star over an M, but on the flats rather than the tubes themselves. And where you have the merged AE, mine has a merged AD. Looks like a nice gun!

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Franc - yes, you read the bbl stampings correctly...Toledo Steel/Sheffield. I have a soft spot for Belgian guns; they are greatly under appreciated IMHO at the higher levels.

Gettemans - thanks for the vote of confidence...time will tell.

Larry - hoping someone can id the * over M as ??. Wondering if the merged letters are from periods when there were overlapping proof managers??

Locks are coming off tonight....I have the proper tools and will exercise caution with the back of the inletting.

I'll also try for some better quality pix....where did i put that grease pencil 20 years ago......

V/r
Maxey

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LOTS of hits for Andrew & Co Ltd. Toledo Steel Works Sheffield
http://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Toledo+Steel%2FSheffield+shotgun

Raimey discussed here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=292926&page=all
and a Verney-Carron with the same lettre annale
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=319543

SDH here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...3a53510770f5e8f

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Drew, the whole "maker, outworker, retailer, finisher, peddlar" thing on the continent is overwhelming.
One of the locks shown in the montenegrin's posts has the two screws just like this one. But no bar in wood.

Ultimately, I bet whomever supplied the locks will be as big a contributor to that shotgun's lineage as is possible to nail down.

When a gun is sold through a retailer, who is "officially" the maker?


Out there doing it best I can.
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Drew - interesting links; thanks.

Got pix to post rather than links!!

So, summing up my thoughts:

Locks removed: no harm, no foul. No additional marks visible. Will have to wait a while for a strip and clean, condition isn't that bad. Hammers/tumblers are gold washed. Look at the uniformity of the gap in the hammer springs....you won't find this on Spanish guns. The skill of that period never ceases to amaze me.

The * over M is on Larry's Francotte, but on the action flat, not barrel. It is visible (just barely) on the pix of the action flats.

The MC in the diamond on the action flats are still a mystery....importer's marks into the US??

Inletting is something else, as with most guns of that era.

The same merged "controllers mark" is shown on one of Drew's links.

The rest of the specs:

BBLs are 28 3/8"; choked .007/.014. Weight with Old English pad is 6 1/4 lbs. I have 2 other vintage 16 guns, and the dynamics of this gun are noticeably superior, and the other 2 are no slouches.

Keep comments coming; always something to learn from these exchanges.

Oh, I forgot to mention, this is #2 of a pair (sigh!).












Last edited by Maxey Brantley; 12/11/15 11:00 PM.
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[quote=Maxey Brantley]The rest of the specs:

BBLs are 28 3/8"; choked .007/.014. Weight with Old English pad is 6 1/4 lbs. I have 2 other vintage 16 guns, and the dynamics of this gun are noticeably superior, and the other 2 are no slouches.

Keep comments coming; always something to learn from these exchanges.

Oh, I forgot to mention, this is #2 of a pair (sigh!).

Maxey, it is a very nice gun. However, in the spirit of "always something to learn," I'd like to express a differing point of view on the dynamics/handling aspect. The judgment expression of "noticeably superior" implies that there is universal handling goodness inherent to the gun. I'd postulate that the gun, based on the description given, has relatively low unmounted and mounted swing efforts (MOI). I'd even guess that this gun is on the ragged edge of where many/most shooters find such handling difficult to shoot well. From my data base I offer up a very similar gun: Arrietta M-871 SLE (16/20 ga set), weight = 6# 5oz, balance = 4 1/2" in front of the trigger, unmounted swing effort = 1.39, mounted swing effort = 6.39, 16 bore, 29" bbls, 14 5/8", 10.08 = compactness. The average Brit game gun has an unmounted swing of 1.45. Below that number an increasing number of shooter experience "whippy" handling issues. The take away here is that objective handling numbers are like stock dimensions in that they are facts about the gun but are more or less desirable based on the individual judging them. For example, only rarely do we hear someone describe stock dimensions as "perfect (or similar)" as most recognize that desirability of stock dimensions depends on the individual. As with stock dimensions, handling characteristics have no optimums.

I surely hope I've given no offense. Just trying to pass along some hard won learning.

DDA

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Rocket man - I always enjoy your comments and data; there is no offense taken. Wish you could take this gun for a "spin". Yes, 'superior' is in the hands of the 'be-holder'. Later today I'll post the data for all three guns I mentioned and perhaps you can quantify/extrapolate what I feel different with each gun.

I noticed on one of Drew's threads the stamping of EW on the interior of the lock was exposed when the tumbler/hammer was in the fired position. I'll remove the locks and take another peek.

V/r
Maxey

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Still no luck on the Diamond MC


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Note the barrel length of 28 3/8" would equate to 72 CM, A common length in metric countries.


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Re: MC.
The answer is right in front of you, just look at the rib.
M. Cantarini was a Parisian retailer at 11 blvd Bonne Nouvelle.
He was the successor of Charles Roblin.
He seemed to have been in business in the 20's and 30's.
This is a beautiful gun proved in 1926.
It would be very hard to identify the actual maker.
Congratulations to the owner. I would love to own that one.
WC-

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