April
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Who's Online Now
7 members (graybeardtmm3, Jimmy W, Fudd, ithaca1, barrel browner, eeb), 423 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,478
Posts545,198
Members14,410
Most Online1,335
Apr 27th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#447967 06/22/16 05:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Hello All,
Could anyone provide any information re Ingram serial numbers?
I have asked all my contacts and searched the net extensively but it is all rather vague.
A combination of the proof/date marks and address, puts the gun between 1925 and 1945.
The serial numbers appear to use a variety of prefixes and numbers and I have hit a brick wall. The gun in question is number AK177, and I am intrigued by the different prefixes.
Cheers,
mrwmartin


NA
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,736
Likes: 96
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,736
Likes: 96
I know that Donald Dallas who now works in the Dickson Edinburgh shop has done a lot of research on Scottish guns. Might be worth giving him a quick call. I'm sure he'd help if he can. Lagopus.....

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
lagopus,
Thanks for the info.
cheers
mrwmartin


NA
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
'Fraid this is what IGC have, nothing on serial numbers though:

Name John Ingram
Other Names Charles Ingram; Charles & James Ingram; Charles Ingram
Address1 13 Eglington Street
Address2 43 Jamaica Street
Address3 93 Union Street
Address4 100 Union Street
Address5 96 Union Street
Address6 100 Union Street
Address7 18b Renfield Street
City/Town Glasgow
State/Region/Province Scotland
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & lock maker; rifle maker, barrel maker
Other Address 10 Waterloo Street, Glasgow; unknown address in Edinburgh.
Dates 1830-1946

Notes

John Ingram was an armourer Sergeant in the 2nd (Royal North British) Dragoons (the Scots Greys). He was born in England in 1786, and married Maria (nee Earl born in England in 1791). They had two sons, Charles (Charles (I)), who was born in Wiltshire, England in 1816, and James who was born in Ireland in 1821. A daughter, Mary, was born in Glasgow in 1827. Reportedly, John established his business at 13 Eglington Street, Glasgow in 1830, and died in 1835. However, in the 1841 census he was recorded as an "Sp deal". What this abbreviation means is not known, it is possible that it means "sporting goods dealer" (i.e. guns and fishing tackle). This might explain how Charles (I) came to be recorded as a gun maker (aged 25) at the family's address of 13 Eglington Street in 1835. It would appear that Charles (I) established his own separate gun making business at that address. At some time, probably in about 1837, Charles (I) married Agnes Wallace (a famous name in Scottish gunmaking which may provide a clue as to where Charles (I) served his apprenticeship). In 1836 Charles (I) moved to 43 Jamaica Street where he traded as a gun and lock maker. In the 1841 census his brother, James (then aged 20) was described as a lock maker. In 1841 James became a partner in the firm which moved to 93 Union Street.

James appears to have left the partnership or died in 1843, and in 1846 Charles (I) moved to 100 Union Street where he traded as the sole proprietor of the business. In 1847 he moved to 91 Union Street, and in 1848 he was at 96 Union Street. In 1852 he was back at 100 Union Street where he described himself as a gun maker and gun barrel rifler. Charles later claimed to be the inventor of "the ratchet system of rifleing". In 1855 he described himself as a gun maker and cast steel rifle barrel manufacturer. He claimed to be the first gunmaker to make steel barrels for sporting guns. In the 1861 census Charles (I) and Agnes were living at 98 Union Street with Charles' mother, Maria, and Maria Annan, Charles' niece. In 1869 Charles (I) described himself as a gunmaker and manufacturer of match rifles. He was a Sergeant in the Lanarkshire Volunteer Rifles and this was probably the main reason why he specialised in military target rifles. In 1870 the firm moved to 18b Renfield Street. In the 1871 census Charles (I) and Agnes were recorded living at 16 Hope Street with Charles' mother (now aged 86). Also recorded at 58 North Hanora Street was a gun maker named Charles Ingram (Charles (II)) who was born in England in 1840 (and his wife Hellen who was born in 1841 in Paisley). This would appear to have been Charles (I) and Agnes' son, previously unrecorded, and he would seem to been employed in the business. It was probably for a short time in the late 1870s that the firm had a shop in Edinburgh.

By the time of the 1881 census Charles' wife, Agnes, appears to have died, and Charles (II) may have died too. Charles (I) was recorded as a master gun maker employing 3 men, and living at 13 Montgomerie Street with his sister, Mary Annan (mentioned above), and her children Charles Annan (b.1857), James Annan (b.1862 a warehouseman), Agnes (b.1865), and George (b.1867 still at school). In 1885 Charles Ingram died and Charles Annan took over the business. Julius and George Coster worked for Charles Annan from 1898 (when Julius died is not known), George left the firm in 1920. When Charles Annan died, and who took over the business from him, is not known. In 1925 the firm moved to 10 Waterloo Street; they closed in 1946.

Other Info
The firm sold cartridges under the name "The Ingram".

I note Graham Mackinley & Co have four Ingram's for sale with date information, at http://www.glasgowgunmakers.co.uk/gunroom/index.aspx?type=1263
If you contact them they could give you serial numbers for the guns to give you a better idea of dates and types.

Tim

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Tim,
Thanks for the IGC info. I have already e mailed Graham Mac, but no reply. I shall try the telephone.
Cheers,
Billy


NA
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
The Royal Scot Greys by Lady Elizabeth Butler, what a regiment!!


http://www.war-art.com/military_prints.php?ProdID=180

The charge by the Union Brigade at Waterloo, was it the turning point? Many historians believe it was.

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 593
Likes: 12
Mmm, typical cavalry, always coming in late!

As you can tell, I was infantry (and a proud regiment with many fine traditions and battle honours too, including Princeton, but perhaps I shouldn't mention that here! :)).

Tim

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Ah, the scorned British infantryman, watches in the background as laurels and praise are lavished upon the cavalry, especially from the ladies. They never could get over all the glory bestowed upon England's Household Cavalry, their most senior regiments. smile

"In the British Army's Order of Precedence, the Household Cavalry is always listed first and always parades at the extreme right of the line." smile

I've looked throughout my collection of Geoffrey Boothroyd books and cannot find anything on that maker.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 311
Likes: 11
treblig 1958,
Thanks for the reply. The Ingram is the Waterloo address, which helps with dates. I shall follow up on the other leads provided here as I am curious re number system and prefixes.
Thanks all,

mrwmartin


NA
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
You are very welcome sir,

But I'm not done yet as I still have the 3 volume set of 'The British Shotgun' by I.M. Crudgington and D.J.Baker to look through. smile

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.098s Queries: 35 (0.070s) Memory: 0.8575 MB (Peak: 1.8989 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-04-28 18:10:57 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS