October
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 83 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,242
Posts509,282
Members14,093
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#454400 08/27/16 01:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 683
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 683
I know, the 20 ga. will do anything the 16 will do, but why did the 16 (and when) did it drop off the market? To me, it's a perfect gauge gun and in a well-made gun, a perfect frame size.

I also realize this has been a field that's pretty well plowed, but then, it's been a slow week.

I say this owning only one 16 gauge gun and realize shells for the guns while not exactly rare are not available as easily as the 12 and 20.

Back when I was in highschool, every young man in my class wanted to own a Browning Sweet 16. What happened? Is there any hope of the 16 making a staggering comeback?

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 680
What killed the 16 gauge?

The Gun Makers and Ammunition makers primarily as they were able to consolidate their lines by introducing the ill begotten 20 gauge magnum as a "modern alternative". The gun and ammunition makers had (and still do) had a willing accomplice in the gun writers of the day. Additionally the 16 gauge was not helped by the fact that there was not a separate class in skeet shooting for the 16 gauge although the 16 was acceptable in the 12 gauge class it was generally ignored in favor of the 12.

Last edited by TwiceBarrel; 08/27/16 03:59 AM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
In this era, in my opinion it is steel shot and the lack of ammunition selection.

If you look at the 12 and 20 gauge, there are lots of choices in type of ammunition and shot sizes. Go into Bass Pro or Gander Mountain or any other "big box" store and you will find 16 gauge, but often it is either good quality #6 or 8, or economy grade. Very few even carry steel in 16 gauge.

The lack of readily available non-steel choices of non-toxic shot also hurts it. Sure you can get Bismuth, but it is a mail order proposition for the most part.

I don't think it is dead, as many have proclaimed over the years. New shooters discover it every day. It is my personal favorite. Browning keeps it alive here in the USA, and RST keeps us stocked with quality ammunition for vintage guns.

I would like to see Remington re-introduce the classic, "Shur-Shot" load in 16 gauge. Most of the loads I find in the stores are high-brass or Federal Magnum loads, which really are not needed for the gauge.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,466
Likes: 117
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,466
Likes: 117
As far as the lack of ammunition goes ....... which came first, the chicken or the egg? IOW, did the lack of ammunition come about because of the decline in popularity of the 16, or did the 16 "fall out of favor" because of a lack of ammunition? IMO, it is the former.

I think gun writers helped the decline along, whether by commiseration or not, I don't know. Today, there are a huge number of hunters who want one gun to do it all, especially younger hunters. It makes no sense to buy a 16 for that. A 12 will do it all, literally. No other gauge is as suited for all types of hunting as the 12. Waterfowl, upland, deer, clays ...... It can handle anything. A 16 is a handicap for a man who wants that. How many 16 Brit guns do you see?, even fewer than American. Is that because of some conspiracy? Of course not. It is simply because the Brits recognized that the lightweight 12 game gun is a superior instrument for upland.

IMO, as much as I enjoy my 16s, they will never return to their former glory.

SRH


"With one foot in the grave ..........and one foot on the pedal, I was born a Rebel" T.P.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,897
Likes: 47
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,897
Likes: 47
You can soup up a 20 or dumb down a 12 to do what a 16 does. You can not soup up a 16 to do what a heavy 12 load can do. I think they missed a marketing opportunity in the 16. They could have defined it's roll, the 16, as "the upland game gun", the 12 as the heavy hitter for wild fowl, geese, turkeys and with the odd deer thrown in. The 20 could have been presented as the charming small gauge for small birds that the 28 now holds. Each with a clear roll and each could be very good at that roll.

But perhaps it is too late for that now. With gun sales heavily skewed for the last fifty years the break down is most likely 70% 12, 20% 20, 1% 16,and 3 % each 28 and .410. So the total market is not there for the sale of 16 ammo to replace the 20 because there are not enough guns waiting for ammo. And ammo makers do look at production numbers to anticipate future sales of ammo needs. Hence not many 16 made in the last 50 years, not much anticipated need for large volumes of ammo.

I just wish Winchester would bring back the compression formed 16 hulls. If they did that they could dominate the 16 market, for new ammo sales, and re-loaders could have a good source of easily reloaded hulls that would last a long time. Having a secure supply line of those hulls would bring a lot of old guns out of hiding.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
I have 20-16-12 gauge doubles and enjoy them equally because they all perform satisfactorily, none better than the other, in the blind over decoys. Reloading obviates supply, market and pressure limitations. Each gauge gets its turn to do what they were made for: to bring pleasure to the shooting sports, blinds or afield. I've never felt handicapped with the 16s, Parker hammer 0 grade and elegant Sauer Model 8.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
Back when I did a lot of deer hunting, I killed more with a 16 gauge Ithaca 37 than any other gun, gauge or caliber.

All good points brought up. I think it is now somewhat of a novelty or nostalgic piece. It will always have the dedicated following, and the new discovery shooter who inherited one, but it will never re-claim its past. But what does?

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 582
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 582
The ammo issue is always brought up, and yes- it can be hard to find a box of 16 anything in Wally World, or much of a selection anywhere else. OP I think has been addressed, with lack of a specific skeet class, and many younger hunter/shooters wanting a "one and done" gun. In my younger days, I chased roosters with a 20 gauge Beretta BL4. I shot 1 1/4 oz magnums, and to a degree, perceived recoil was mitigated by the excitement of the flush. As time went by, I learned of patterns, shot columns, and the optimum load for a particular bore. I still vividly recall the first time a 16- a sxs- was put in my hands. I had gone to the old Flatwater for the first time, and had brought a 20 ga Beretta Gold Pigeon, and my turkey/waterfowl gun (the only two smoothbores I owned). Guns were freely passed around at that gathering, and the instant I held that Grulla it was all over. Call me a big Goldilocks, at 6 ft. , 200 lbs, and no gloves on the planet big enough for my hands- the 20 is too small, the 12 too big, the 16 just right.

I have shot London best lightweight short 12's. Nothing feels like a sleek 16 in my hands. Gun sales indicate I am in a small minority. I don't care. I can't easily get the 3/4 oz loads that most often fill the chambers, so I roll my own.

A neighbor is awaiting delivery of a 20 ga that he is going to use to introduce his daughter to hunting/ shooting. The lightest readily available load is 7/8 oz. If he wants lighter loads, he will probably have to reload or pay a premium.

I am with KY Jon, in that where the 16 shines is the uplands, which comprises most of my hunting- carried more than shot. I also shoot targets with it, and find 3/4 oz sufficient to handle most realistic presentations, If of course I do my part.

So do please continue to tout the 12, and bemoan the lack of fare for the deposed queen of the uplands- less competition for her, especially those quirky French round actions with the inferior steel. smile

Mike


Tolerance: the abolition of absolutes

Consistency is the currency of credibility
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 342
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 342
After 30 + years of happily shooting a pair of 20 Ga. BSS SxS’s, I discovered a 16 Ga. #2 AyA. I had mounted the gun and swung it around the store before I discovered that it was the “dreaded” 16 Ga. Prior to that time I had never considered a 16 gauge.

I asked the clerk if they had a 20 and they did. The 16 felt much better whereas the 20 felt whippy. The AyA weighs a full pound less than my beloved 20’s and I believe that an ounce of shot is adequate for most upland bird hunting.

I think that it is the combination of gun and gauge that has caused me to forsake my 20’s and don’t doubt that somewhere there is a 20 Ga. SxS that would feel as good as the AyA. A 16 Ga. built on a 12 Gauge frame is not a gun I would choose.
I use my 16 for all upland bird hunting and shoot reloads with the ejecta ranging from ¾ oz. to 1 1/8 oz.


I discovered that available 16 Ga. ammo was expensive, lacking in load choices and availability when compared to either 20 or 12 gauge ammunition. Not a problem, because I reload.

I stumbled upon all brass hulls from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, which opened up a reloading choice bonanza. One hull suitable for any gauge specific published load for straight walled hulls.

I have ben reloading since I was 19 years old and I have never had better patterns than the RMC hulls and the AyA produce.

During my lifetime of upland bird hunting, I have never been happier with a gun and it’s gauge. Below are my pheasant loads of 1 oz. of #6 shot and 1 1/8 oz. of # 5 1/2 shot. Same approximate pellet count, but the 5 1/2 shot gives a little more down range effectiveness.



Last edited by wyobirds; 08/27/16 09:54 AM.

Jim
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 25
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,569
Likes: 25
I got over the 16 a long time ago. Had plenty of them in various sxs's, one Parker GH that was especially nice. But I don't miss it or any of the others. The few 20 ga. guns I have serve when I want a slimmer, lighter shotgun for doves, which is the only gamebird I pursue anymore.

The 16 ga. has been moribund for many years, yet straggles along because of the few shooters remaining who just like something different, and because there are still some really nice 16 ga. two-row shotguns floating around out there. Also, Browning seems determined not to leave it out of their line, with Winchester family ties for shells a contributing factor on that as well.

Uncle Stan has one I like a lot, a field grade L. C. Smith with 32" tight-choked barrels and ejectors and good dimensions. A genuine long-range puffer.
JR


Be strong, be of good courage.
God bless America, long live the Republic.
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.039s Queries: 35 (0.015s) Memory: 0.8532 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-10-28 08:16:27 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS