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Joined: Jan 2016
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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Looks like an old Victor paper-mache mallard decoy? You have some nice shotguns...Geo


Actually, that's an old Carrylite I found at a flea market....

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I began duck hunting with paper-mache decoys in the '50s. They worked but eventually all got waterlogged and smashed somehow...Geo

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Back to the gun and shells. I have a 1927 12 gauge Ithaca (NOT Ithica, by the by) Grade 2- DT, ext. 30" M&F (no 2 and no. 4 chokes) and also a 1916 Field Grade 12 gauge L.C. Smith, same specs and stock dims as the NID- 30" M&F- one of the many nice things about Smith 12 gauges, they had std. 2& 3/4" chambers, as does the NID. I shoot up to 1250 fps. 2& 3/4" AA Handicap and also 1& 1/4 no. 6 RST pheasant loads in them all the time- although if I were hunting in SD with the 1&1/4 loads, I'd use one of my several 12 gauge Model 12's. When pheasant shooting with either of these "un-matched pair" of 30" barreled 12 bore doubleguns, I use a 1& 1/8 ounce load of 7&1/2 shot in the right barrel (front trigger, modified choke) and save the heavier 1& 1/4 ounce load of no. 6 chilled for the left barrel (rear trigger, full choke. I do this whether shooting over pointing dogs or flushing dogs.

I consider either of these solid oldies (The Smith is on the R or std. frame-Ithaca did not offer frame size options: R or FW as with the LC Smith- or the 1-1&1/2-2 frame sizes on the "carriage bolted Parker guns"-- One of the many things that jerks my chain on the gun sellers internet websites (GB, GA, GI, and also Cabela's-- besides spelling Ithaca as Ithica, is the idiots that describe the pre-1913 field grade L.C. Smiths they are trying to sell as being "On the OO size frame" Bullcookies- that is a pre-1913 grading number code from Hunter Arms- after 1913 it was designated as the Field grade.

I also prefer my Smiths (I own and shoot 5- all 12 gauge) to have extractors- easier to close and recock, and as I do a lot of barnyard and farmlot shooting in the off bird seasons, and I also reload, not having to shag my empties out of the cowshit or cornrows is a advantage- it also reduces greatly the chances of the farmer's livestock ingesting the plastic hulls-

Only one of my 12 Smiths is on the FW frame- a 1940 mfg. 12 Ideal grade- 28" Imp. cyl. and Mod- DT, Ext- and it will sometimes double if I fire a 1250 load in the right barrel first, same as when I should choose to fire the left barrel (rear trigger) first- but with 1150 fps. loads, it functions like a Rolex-- so, if your Smith is on a FW frame, you might want to check this out. What I do is load the second barrel with a snap cap with masking tape over the primer area- if your gun is doubling, when you open the breech, besides the pierced or dented primer on the shell that fired, you will also see a hole pierced in the masking tape. Not a good thing.


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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"There is a fairly well know LC Smith restorer, gunsmith down in Pevely MO, I may swing the gun by him to take a look at it. I may have him do the restore work I want done on my Sterlingworth barrels as well"

That gunsmith would be Buck Hamlin, and Buck is the individual who performed the restoration and stock work on the 5E Smith gun I referenced in my previous post. You won't go wrong choosing Buck, and you can count on Buck to be completely honest. If you do choose Buck, I'd suggest you call in advance of your visit - 636/479-4304.

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Originally Posted By: topgun
"There is a fairly well know LC Smith restorer, gunsmith down in Pevely MO, I may swing the gun by him to take a look at it. I may have him do the restore work I want done on my Sterlingworth barrels as well"

That gunsmith would be Buck Hamlin, and Buck is the individual who performed the restoration and stock work on the 5E Smith gun I referenced in my previous post. You won't go wrong choosing Buck, and you can count on Buck to be completely honest. If you do choose Buck, I'd suggest you call in advance of your visit - 636/479-4304.


I called Buck one day a couple weeks ago, just to make sure he's still down there and all. Got to talk guns with him for quite a while, seems like a really nice guy. One of those salt of the earth types....

My smith, definitely has the FW receiver. I read somewhere on here, that Smith did not start putting the FW designation in front of the serial number until about 1918 or so. My gun is a 1915, and only has an "E" on it, no FW. But, it's definitely the FW frame.

More than likely, I'll just use my NID if I want to shoot anything heavier, or I have a nice contraption called a Beretta AL391 Urika II that will handle heavy loads if I have to. And, I shoot that gun pretty darn good usually. It's just doesn't put the same smile on my face as a SxS does.... :-)

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The FW (Featherweight) gun is distinguishable from a Regular frame in that it has two screws on the left lock plate and one on the right plate. The Regular frame has only one screw.
Also not all FW framed guns are lighter than Regular framed guns having the same specs.

The "E" on your gun is for ejectors. The frame has nothing to do with ejecting, it is all in the for-end.

Last edited by JDW; 09/01/16 03:55 PM.

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Originally Posted By: JDW
The FW (Featherweight) gun is distinguishable from a Regular frame in that it has two screws on the left lock plate and one on the right plate. The Regular frame has only one screw.
Also not all FW framed guns are lighter than Regular framed guns having the same specs.

The "E" on your gun is for ejectors. The frame has nothing to do with ejecting, it is all in the for-end.


Correct, this is a FW frame, the screw patterns match, the smaller barrel lug, etc. But, it is a fairly light gun for a 28" 12ga SxS. My NID seems much heavier, although it does have 30" barrels. I need to weigh them.

Either way, happy with the gun, plan to shoot it this weekend.


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Got to shoot the Elsie last weekend, it performed flawlessly, even if I didn't. Really like this shotgun, and looking forward to spending some time in the field with it this fall/winter.

Ejectors, safety, etc all functioned as they should.

Very happy with it.

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BTW, ran across this... If I read this right, I would think 1 1/8 oz 3dram 1200 fps loads would have been normal for this gun back in the day.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview



c. 1900: The “standard” U.S. 12 gauge Field and Inanimate Target load was 1 1/4
oz. shot with 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (1220 fps) of Bulk Smokeless in a
2 5/8” or 2 3/4” case, with a modern transducer pressure of 8000 - 9500 psi.
Live Bird loads were usually 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless Powder
with a pressure of about 11,750 psi

Just before WWI: The “standard” U.S. 12g Field and Target load was
1 1/8 oz. shot with 3 Dr. Eq. (1200 fps) Dense Smokeless in a 2 3/4” case
with a transducer pressure of 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

Last edited by CallaoJoe; 09/15/16 11:22 AM.
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Joe: Hunter Arms hand tags for 12 gauge specified 3 Dram with 1 1/4 oz. shot (1887 - about 1920), then 3 dram with 1 1/8 oz. shot (after 1920).

As you mention in the first post, there has been a repair of the left inferior finger of the head of the stock. Until you know the quality and extent of that repair, and whether the head of the stock was glasbedded, I would stick with 1 oz. target loads.
Please see
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17090409

My big country pheasant gun is a 1906 12g 00. The head of the stock has been glasbedded, so I'm confident using B&P MB Classic 1 1/8 oz. at 1330 fps. For recreational skeet however I use B&P Competition One 7/8 oz at 1160 fps.

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