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When I started driving to and from Alaska, we'd see big signs in northern British Columbia and the Yukon that just said "80% non-compliance"!!

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Originally Posted By: old colonel
How did people lose their collections to the government, were they not able to remove them from NY?

I understand they may have lost their right to own it instate, but how did the law take their collection before they could legally dispose of it.


That's a very good question. I can give you a generic example that repeats itself constantly in New York. First, let me give you some background information. In New York State, a person subject to an "Order of Protection" (also known as "restraining orders" in other states - New York distinguishes between the two because a restraining order has an entirely different meaning in the context of civil litigation) may have their guns seized. Sometimes, police agencies seize weapons subject to low-grade arrests (such seizures may or may not be legal depending on the facts but that is immaterial to the instant discussion).

Innocent people may be subject to an order of protection even if they have not been convicted of a crime. Neighbors call the cops on other neighbors that they are involved in a property line disagreement with. Or for some other non-criminal, non-threatening nonsense. It is the policy of many District Attorneys' offices to automatically request the Order of Protection on all harassment cases. Some judges will rubber stamp the Order of Protection without a thorough inquiry of whether it is actually warranted. So, a neighbor dispute where the defendant may actually be the harassed person can (and has) resulted in his/her entire firearms collection being seized due to an order of protection.

Once the collection of firearms is turned over to the police agency charged with storing the firearms during the pendency of the Order of Protection. "Well", you might argue, "it's an inconvenience to be sure, but if a person commit no crime, the guns should simply be returned to their owner when the case is dismissed, right?"

Wrong.

Thanks to Aloi v. Aloi[i][/i], 10 A.D.3d 655 (2004), the Town & City Justice Courts (where these misdemeanors arise) do not have the authority to issue an Order returning the seized firearms. Instead, the innocent party must initiate an Article 78 proceeding in the Supreme Court (trial courts, to be sure, not the highest court of appeal) in the district where the seizing court issued the initial Order of Protection. This costs a lot of money : $305 for the filing fees (Index No. + Request for Judicial Intervention) and attorneys' fees to write the Order to Show Cause, Verified Petition, and run the hearing (believe me, it's a lot of work and not inexpensive). If the innocent party fails to obtain the Order directing the police department to release the guns, the guns may sit in the station house or end up destroyed.

If the judge refuses to grant the Petition, the innocent party's only recourse is to commence an appeal to the appropriate department of the Appellate Division (there are four; jurisdiction is dependent on geographic locale). Appeals are labor intensive for any law firm, and the administrative costs alone (transcript, printing, service) are significant. You may or may not be entitled to have your case heard at the Court of Appeals in the even you lose at the Appellate Division.

That's one (of many) ways an innocent party can lose their collection to the government. If you or anyone else is interested, I would be happy to answer further questions about the firearms law debacle in New York, to the extent that I can (obviously I cannot discuss specific cases or disclose confidential client information).

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Quote:
"If the Federal Government were serious about enforcing the laws on the books, there would be no holdup with respect to processing appeals of NICS denials (a part part of our law practice). The failure to timely process NICS appeals has been an abject disaster and a de fact denial of Second Amendment rights to innocent Americans. When the executive branch gets serious about enforcing and managing the laws already on the books, then we can take the government's constant demands for new laws seriously. Until then, the argument for new laws lacks any indicia of credibility."

Everyone got an answer to that question from Joe Biden the current VP. When asked he stated that the Federal government doesn't have the personnel resources to go after those that lie when filling out a 4473.
His solution? why more comprehensive gun laws of course. This inane response is understandable when you understand that the Libtard/socialist goal is to set up a universal registration system which would eventually result in total firearms confiscation. That's the real reason why they don't care about prosecuting 4473 violators.

And BTW: Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't the Canadian Government spend billions of dollars in an attempt to set up a universal firearms registration system? And didn't they ultimately decide it was useless and a waste of money and cancel it?
Jim




Last edited by James M; 09/05/16 02:47 AM.

The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
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Haynes vs. the U.S.

That was the Supreme Court case that ruled that criminals cannot be compelled to register their guns because it would be a violation of their Fifth Amendment Right to not incriminate themselves.

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.haynes.html

That's right. Under any government gun registration scheme, law abiding citizens would be compelled to register their guns, but felons would not.

Not surprisingly, King Brown is once again doing his LULLING of U.S. gun owners by falsely proclaiming that "reining in guns will never happen." He knows this is a lie because the Liberal Left Democrats King supports and defends never stop trying. As old colonel correctly states, the left simply cannot be trusted, and in my opinion, King Brown himself is proof of that statement. King is drawn to these matters because Gun Control is part of his agenda and the agenda of the Left:

Originally Posted By: King Brown
Gun control doesn't work? I believe gun control works reasonably generally in Canada, providing a less violent society compared to some others, in good part because of our different culture.


Originally Posted By: King Brown
I'd feel better about 2nd protection if our side stopped shooting itself in the foot with the makes-no-difference between 10 and larger magazines, cross-messaging of the worst kind. The antis are saying if the difference is 6-8 seconds what's the problem of excluding the 10-plus?


Originally Posted By: King Brown
Ed, historically the individual "right" to bear arms is relatively new. I believe John Ashcroft in 2002 became the first federal attorney-general to proclaim that individuals should be able to own guns. The Supreme Court in 2008 overturned all mainstream legal and historical scholarship by ruling that there is an individual right to own firearms although with some limits. Obama said it again last week.

I believe that during the previous 218 years the Second meant what it said: firearms shall be held by "the People"---a collective and not individual right---insofar they are in the service of "a well-regulated militia." Was an individual right even mentioned at the Constitutional Convention or in the House when it ratified the Amendment or when debated in state legislatures? I don't think so.


All this from a guy who repeatedly claims to be pro-gun, and this is but a small fraction of his anti-gun, anti 2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA rhetoric.

Canada recently passed a law scrapping the Canadian Long Gun Registry. You can bet that King Brown did nothing to assist the Canadian gun owners who successfully fought to end that part of gun registration in Canada. Unfortunately, Quebec has refused to comply with the law and destroy their database. But nobody with any brains at all would ever expect that those records would all be destroyed. Not in an age when immensely large data storage has gotten so cheap and easy.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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I don't know how you would rank Canada within right and left categories. We just sent packing a conservative federal government for its autocratic governance. Two of my conservative waterfowling and fishing buddies put 2 X 3 signs on their lawns saying "I am a conservative but Harper has to go."

I believe no government can be trusted to do what it promises, even as a sacred trust, and despite that Canada has come to a reasonable public accommodation with its gun laws.There are indications of making handgun restrictions less onerous and currently a small petition of 25,000 signatures has asked to lift restrictions on AR15s.

Other than that, Canadian gunners have more freedom than the US regulatory rigamarole. I haven't heard a moan or cry (other than the above) since we got rid of the long gun registry. I have no use for an AR15, consider them ugly, and believe those who want them should organize as long gunners did to get public support for their mission.

PS--I've said here several times the only organization American shooters can trust to represent their interests is the NRA. Party affiliation is a crap shoot. A single person whose positions change daily has just taken over a national political party in his name to do as he wishes as president. With respect, Colonel, making lefties scapegoats isn't it. NRA is the only trustworthy player. .

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Originally Posted By: James M
This is a very lengthy article describing how the FBI does a firearms trace and their associated problems in doing so. The article is opinionated(anti-NRA and Anti-gun) but it's the most comprehensive description of the process I've ever seen. This information is detailed and probably NOT of interest to all the members here.

IF YOU HAVE NO INTEREST IN HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS DON'T BOTHER READING IT!
Jim

http://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns


The ATF does the firearms tracing not the FBI. FBI runs the NICS system.


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The only thing I found interesting was how often the author mentioned that nothing was computerized but they are now converting 4473, which use to be micro filmed, into PDFs. That must be some trick without a computer. Searching those PDFs without a computer must be darn near impossible.

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King, exactly what are you referring to " Other than that, Canadian gunners have more freedom than the US regulatory rigamarole ". The only federal law that effects me when buying a gun from a dealer is two sheets of paper. When buying privately there is nothing if it's a long gun, and my CPL takes care of pistol purchases. Thankfully I don't live in a state with state laws restricting conceal carry. My daughter, wife, and myself all carry everyday. That statement you made that I referred to - it's almost funny how you have to get your little " dig " into the USA. Then you try to give everyone half baked excuses for your statements. They don't cut it - everyone knows you're a liberal Winnie.

Last edited by Paul Harm; 09/05/16 09:33 AM.
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Originally Posted By: King Brown
Other than that, Canadian gunners have more freedom than the US regulatory rigamarole. I haven't heard a moan or cry (other than the above) since we got rid of the long gun registry. I have no use for an AR15, consider them ugly, and believe those who want them should organize as long gunners did to get public support for their mission.


Rights are not contingent on your consumer tastes.

Originally Posted By: King Brown
PS--I've said here several times the only organization American shooters can trust to represent their interests is the NRA. Party affiliation is a crap shoot. A single person whose positions change daily has just taken over a national political party in his name to do as he wishes as president. With respect, Colonel, making lefties scapegoats isn't it. NRA is the only trustworthy player. .


It is true that both Democrats and Republicans have sold out gun owners at some level or another, at least in New York State. The putrid piece of legislation called "The SAFE Act" could not have been passed without Dean Skelos betraying his voters and voting against Second Amendment Rights. (In case you don't keep up with New York Politics, Dean Skelos is the now-convicted felon who acted as NYS Senate President; Democrat Sheldon Silver is the other now-convicted felon who acted as Democratic Assembly Majority Leader and also instrumental in passing the SAFE Act.)

It is not true that the NRA is the only organization gun owners can trust to represent their interests. The NRA is the most visible and powerful organization, but its primary focus is on lobbying in Washington. D.C. There are other great organizations including the Second Amendment Foundation and Gun Owners of America. At the moment, the biggest impediments to gun rights are found in the states, and there are many great organizations dedicated to protecting Second Amendment rights at the state level. For example, we have the Shooter's Committee on Political Education ("S.C.O.P.E.") in New York. Ultimately, the protection of every right comes to We, the People to demand better from our government and exercise our other fundamental right to vote.

Last edited by Smokeshot; 09/05/16 09:51 AM.
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I can buy a gun without a sheet of paper. anywhere in Canada, no FFLs etc. No 20,000 gun laws cited by another member, just a federal one, no squabbling about enforcements night and day in thousands of constituencies over Second Amendment interpretations, no nastiness and alienation over gun laws.

My family has no need to carry for personal safety. It doesn't live in a slaughterhouse. I am a liberal in ascendency in every modern country including the US. We're blessed to have US as neighbour, most powerful and influential in the world, still surpassingly great while recovering from a nervous breakdown.

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