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Joined: Feb 2003
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Herter's shells are Italian loaded Cheddites.

They are CIP spec shells.

While inexpensive (yay), they are not 'cheap'.

I've burned a couple thousand of them this year and they function well.

Zero failure to fire or failure to extract or eject and they burn clean.

They have to be assumed to be CIP maximum unless tested otherwise, and even then if the pressure isn't actually published by the manufacturer there is no guarantee the next lot won't be loaded with different components and/or powder.

Large producers load to velocity with non-canister powders and the products while within spec can vary quite a bit from lot to lot and year to year.

Examples would be the evolution of the Estate brand, or the ever annoying Winchester crap from Australia.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Originally Posted By: Lloyd3
I'm with Steve on this one. Nine thou is a bit high, but not egregiously so. If those tubes are indeed 44-thousandths then those shells will never come close to causing this gun a problem (barring a stuck wad, but that's any gun). Moreover, if felt recoil isn't bad then I'd not be too-concerned about the head of the stock either.


The felt recoil of the Herter was definitely less than the felt recoil of the RST 1oz. loads. That's part of the reason I was surprised to see the 9000 PSI figure... if that's correct.

Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Herter's offers a 1 oz. Field & Target @ 1290 fps, a Select Field Dove & Quail 1 oz. at 1250 fps, and the Target LR 1 oz. @ 1060 fps.
B&P Competition One 1 oz. at 1160 fps is 6530 psi.
I suspect the 9000 psi is the Field & Target.

If the chambers have been lengthened, the wall thickness at the end of the chamber and forcing cone is critical.


I wondered if that was the case. 9000psi seemed really high for the low recoil load. I'll have a the barrel walls rechecked.

Originally Posted By: SKB
So with a measured .044" wall thickness you guys are worried at 9K? I would not be. What is CIP for a Brit 2&1/2" shell? Very close to 9K. You have very thick walls if measured correctly.....proceed and have fun.


These are the wall thickness as told to me from the individual I bought the gun from. I'll have them re-measured to confirm. And I re-weighed the gun.... it's actually 7 3/4 lbs.


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Come on you guys we have beaten this horse to death many times. Felt Recoil has no relationship to chamber pressure. It is calculate on weight of projectile (ejecta), velocity and weight of the gun period. If you have a question concerning chamber pressure send a sample to Tom Armbrust but remember the numbers he gives you are good for the tested lot only as ammunition manufacturers change propellants all the time and pressures may vary considerably so long as they do not exceed SAAMI or CIP published maximums.

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Originally Posted By: TwiceBarrel
Felt Recoil has no relationship to chamber pressure. True

It is calculate on weight of projectile (ejecta), velocity and weight of the gun period. This is actual recoil, not felt recoil. Felt recoil remains subjective because we can't agree on who feels what.

If you have a question concerning chamber pressure send a sample to Tom Armbrust (+1) but remember the numbers he gives you are good for the tested lot only as ammunition manufacturers change propellants all the time and pressures may vary considerably so long as they do not exceed SAAMI or CIP published maximums.


DDA

Last edited by Rocketman; 09/11/16 10:33 PM.
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It is calculate on weight of projectile (ejecta), velocity and weight of the gun period. This is actual recoil, not felt recoil. Felt recoil remains subjective because we can't agree on who feels what.

Yes quite true but the felt recoil is a direct result of actual recoil as interpreted by the shooters sensory perceptions what the shooter feels and felt recoil, not measured or calculated recoil, is what has been discussed in previous posts.

Last edited by TwiceBarrel; 09/11/16 10:54 PM.
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Herter's shells do indeed carry the CIP logo. However, that only means that they meet CIP service pressure standards. For "standard proof" loads, that figure translates to 10,730 psi as measured by transducers. Not all that different from SAAMI's 11,500 psi service pressure standard. Chances are, most CIP loads are going to be well below that, and that'd be particularly likely in the case of a 1060 fps load.

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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
I would not shoot cheap shells in nice vintage European gun like that. I would not, however, have any problems putting them through: Parker Bros, Fox,.... Lefever or L.C. Smith with fluid steel barrels. All A.H. Fox guns had fluid steel barrels them rest you have to be careful with.


Jagermeister, the only reason you would not shoot cheap shells in any of those guns you mentioned is because you do not own any of them. In fact, you do not own even one double, yet you come here and post crap that you read somewhere else. The only shotgun you have is a short barreled Ithaca Model 37 pump, and I'm not so sure I even believe that story anymore.

Pretending to be something you're not on the internet is just sick and pathetic. You and King need some mental health counseling or electro-shock or something.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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From practical point of view I never thought that C.I.P. monogram on pack of shells was relevant at all. What I mean is that light game load never approaches Avg. PMax allowed under those guidelines. In fact one could probably find US shells made to our standard with lover avg. gas pressure then some European loaded ones. In other words one can not assure that just because shell has 65mm fired case length and CIP rating it is automatically low pressure.
Anyhow one can buy light game loads loaded for Holland & Holland for less today than I bought Gamebore, Hull and Eley ones dozen or so years ago. I'm not sure who loads Holland & Holland but Westley Richards loads came from Lyalvale Cartridge Co. Naturally one can take some American pride to heart and buy shells from RST of PA? USA.

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I think Sherman Bell dismissed any worries about Damascus guns blowing up with pressures in the 9000 range. If it were mine I would shoot it without a second thought. Paul

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That would depend on type of damascus. For example, I remember reading in Diggory Hadokes excellent book that three strip Birmingham laminate was second in strength to Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid compressed steel. That was strong indeed. If I recall correctly the fine Belgian "Chain damascus" did not fare so well.

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