doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus barrel questions.

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Here's a set of Birmingham proofed barrels off a Saxton shotgun. It looks to have been originally proofed a 12ga, between 1887 and 1896. It appears to be an American Trade gun sold by Alfred Field & Co, which had concerns in both Birmingham and New York. According to an old PeteM post, AH Saxton joined the firm in 1867, perhaps he handled the guns side of the business. The tubes look to be 2 iron crolle and are marked J.A.R., perhaps the tube maker?

Now the confusing thing. The owner reports it's a short chambered 10ga, which he shoots regularly. Are the number 12 on the flats a rough tube size indicator? What about the number 12 within the diamond? What am I missing? Any info is welcome.

Regards
Ken

12C Indicates 12 ga chambers at time of proof.If 10 ga Shells fit chamber and rims two scenarios. A. opened up to 10ga later or
B.Mis-marked at proof. Check firing pin centers. Std 12 would be 1.125" 10ga 1.187" ( approx) Photo of end of chambers/breeches would help.

Thanks, but I only have the tubes so that will have to come later. The bores are shiny, so it may have been done because of a rough bore.

It also occurred to me that some English makers brand their tubes (a Thomas Bland & Sons comes to mind) so I'm wondering if JAR indicates a specific Birmingham maker. I haven't found a reference yet. That would provide another piece for the Saxton puzzle.

Regards
Ken

If you have a set of calipers which measure inside/outside measure the web between the chambers just ahead of the rim seat & then measure the outsides of the chambers, also just ahead of the rim seat. add the two figures together & divide by two, this will give you the spacing of the centerlines of the chambers, firing pin spacing will be very near to the same.
While you are measuring measure the diameter of each chamber, again just ahead of the rim seat. If its a 12 it will be around .812", if a 10 around .860".

Heck, just drop a 12 gauge shell in. If it's a ten the 12 rim will be much smaller than the barrel rim recess. When I do this in one of my short tens the hull slips off the extractor.

PS: Ken, what's the status of the barrels I sent you?

I just measured the firing pin centers for this Saxton. I get 1.131, so it appears it is a 12 that was re-chambered to 10. I have dropped a 12 in it before and it is a wobbly fit at best. And it does shoot the 2 7/8" 10 ga just fine. Course, I am very new to all of this so I very well may have shot 10ga thru a 12 gun. Not knowing that much, I went by what the gentlemen I bought it from told me and that was that he shot it a lot with 10 shorts. Shame on me for assuming. The other thing I find odd, is when I measured the chamber, I got 3.5" which I would not think right for this at all? The previous owner also mentioned that and that he would in no way ever shoot 3.5 10s in it. That, I am smart enough to avoid on a 120+yr old gun. ;-)

Joe,

I had a delay caused by a hand injury that resulted in an infection. I had just doubled the size of my shop,built several more work benches and fixtures, and then I lost the use of my hand. It's healing now, so once the inflamation is gone I'll begin the cycle. I don't want to take the chance on dropping a set and damaging it.

One good thing is that I've been researching less invasive methods of tube prep, and I'm planning on using electrolysis to remove the old coating on your set, so I should be able to avoid abrasives and chemicals when prepping your tubes. All with the intent on maintaining existing tube thickness.

Regards
Ken

Charlie,

I just scaled the tubes, and they scale at 4 lbs. 9.6 oz. It may have started out as 12ga Wildfowling gun that was opened up to 10 GA. The chamber line appears to be well defined, much more so than other sets I have seen that were honed. It looks like (to my inexpert eye) that whoever did it did a professional job.

Regards
Ken

My nominal 12 gauge Greener hammer gun proofed under the rules in effect in 1879 had been honed out to .783 bores and accepted 2 7/8 ten gauge shells. It still had .110 wall thickness at the end of the forcing cone and minimum wall thickness at around .022 about 6 inches back from the muzzle. A 12 gauge shell was loose in the chamber but would not fall in.

Thanks Gents. I won't be shooting it a ton as I can't afford 10 shorts for clays or waterfowling, so the occasional fun 10-15 rounds is about it, it would make a gorgeous usable wall hanger (especially after Ken gets done with the barrels :-) ) and it may do that some too!