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Joined: Jan 2002
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Ted, you're looking for proofmarks that existed simultaneously only between 1925-1954. Prior to 1925, shot charge was marked--but chamber length only rarely. That being said, I think you'll find that most pre-1925 guns marked 1 1/4 oz will have 2 3/4" chambers. And after 1954, when the Brits went to the "tons" marks, shot charge was no longer marked. Replaced by the "tons" service pressure mark. And if the post-1954 guns were 2 3/4" (true I think of every W&S 700 I've seen from that period), they were also marked 3 1/4 tons and would have been OK with 1 1/4 oz loads--as opposed to the 2 1/2", 3 ton guns which were basically the equivalent of the 2 1/2", 1 1/8 oz guns from the 1925-54 period.

No question a gun like that would cost a fair piece of change today. But then I expect that's also true of some far more modern guns. The Parker Reproduction would certainly cost a lot more than the $3,000 for which they originally sold.

Last edited by L. Brown; 11/12/16 10:15 AM.
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Larry,
Most of what we see in English game guns in 12 gauge is 2 1/2" 1 1/8th oz proof. Most of the English guns we find here were built prior to WWII. Few were built with 2 3/4" chambers in England, prior to the war.
Production drastically decreased after that. There were other factors involved that sent those older guns to the US, but, my original point stands. It is a nice example of a higher grade English boxlock ejector, in a level of proof, not often seen here, that is very useful to US shooters.


Best,
Ted

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You know how I change chokes for different shooting situations?

I just grab a different gun. Simple, easy, and so much more satisfying than limiting myself to owning just one or two guns.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Again, Ted . . . no shortage of W&S 700's--certainly more common than other guns from the post-1954 "tons" era--proofed at 3 1/4 tons. They'll handle 1 1/4 oz, although most people will stick with lighter loads, even when hunting--because of the relatively light weight of most Brit guns. The Brits built more "game guns" than they did waterfowlers or pigeon guns. And in their driven shooting game--assuming you're talking typical driven shooting and not the ultra-high birds--you don't even need 1 1/8 oz.

And yes, the BSA is a "higher grade" than your typical BSA. But it's still a BSA. My Webley & Scott Model 400 is the same model with which Percy Stanbury won many shoots in the UK . . . except mine is the much fancier Grade 1, with lovely full coverage small scroll, deeply chiseled fences, etc. And very nice wood. But it's still a Webley & Scott, an unusually nice one no doubt (built on the "screw grip" action) . . . but that won't make it into a Purdey.

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Originally Posted By: Researcher
Fifty years ago, when I got my 1914-vintage Ansley H. Fox straight grip, A-Grade, 28-inch Krupp barrel, 12-gauge, it was improved modified in both barrels. I had the gunsmiths at Warshal's Sporting Goods, 1st & Madison in Seattle, open that right barrel to improved cylinder. Has been my go to bird gun for fifty seasons and is nicknamed Meat in the Pot --



December 2014 --



I have certainly never missed that extra choke in the right barrel.

The BSA isn't the "Sultan of Turkey Colt"!!! Make it useful to you.




Look at Researchers old Fox, a trusted companion for decades. From the pics you can see how the slip over pad has worn with time. There is something to say about using the one gun that you can absolutely trust. Maybe that BSA will be his.

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Looking back at the photos of Blade's gun: Yes, it's a very nice BSA. I have a Jeffery, also in excellent condition, with engraving quite similar to that gun, maybe a touch better. The gun weighs dead on at 6# with 28" barrels (chambers opened and gun reproofed at 2 3/4"). Priced under $4,000 by a well-known sxs dealer--and Jeffery carries a bunch more "brand value" than BSA. Not to mention the lightweight thing, which would likely trip a lot of triggers. (Tripped mine, for sure.)

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Ted, you're looking for proofmarks that existed simultaneously only between 1925-1954 . . .


According to Boothroyd's "Sidelocks & Boxlocks" BSA ceased shotgun production "around 1939".

Originally Posted By: treblig1958
There is something to say about using the one gun that you can absolutely trust. Maybe that BSA will be his.


That's not likely. I own more than a dozen shotguns. I'm primarily a skeet shooter and I have several guns more appropriate for the task.

Last edited by bladeswitcher; 11/12/16 09:11 PM.
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I don't have an opinion as to leaving it as is or boring it out. However, that brings to mind a fine old English gun I saw that had been restored and then slut-slapped. I don't know the maker but it was fine, Damascus barrels and engraved. Beautiful barrels with a great pattern.

The current owner, however, had the barrels threaded and fitted with chokes that extended outside the barrels end. (I don't know the proper term.) It looked awful.

Not being a bird hunter myself, can't afford it and I'm a terrible shot, I see little need to "improve" the pattern from my standpoint. However, I had a Husqvarna reamed as you describe, a good shotgun for shooting but as plain as a mud fence and will never have collector value.

I'm not a collector, on the other hand and have never owned an English shotgun. The great thing about ownership in America is you can do as you please.

Last edited by Genelang; 11/12/16 11:00 PM.
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I suppose at some point I should cut the suspense . . .

FWIW, I have no intention of altering the choke of the left barrel any time soon.

I sure have enjoyed the discussion, though.

Last edited by bladeswitcher; 11/12/16 11:10 PM.
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Again, Ted . . . no shortage of W&S 700's--certainly more common than other guns from the post-1954 "tons" era--proofed at 3 1/4 tons. They'll handle 1 1/4 oz, although most people will stick with lighter loads, even when hunting--because of the relatively light weight of most Brit guns. The Brits built more "game guns" than they did waterfowlers or pigeon guns. And in their driven shooting game--assuming you're talking typical driven shooting and not the ultra-high birds--you don't even need 1 1/8 oz.

And yes, the BSA is a "higher grade" than your typical BSA. But it's still a BSA. My Webley & Scott Model 400 is the same model with which Percy Stanbury won many shoots in the UK . . . except mine is the much fancier Grade 1, with lovely full coverage small scroll, deeply chiseled fences, etc. And very nice wood. But it's still a Webley & Scott, an unusually nice one no doubt (built on the "screw grip" action) . . . but that won't make it into a Purdey.


Larry,
There are 9 model 700s in 12 gauge for sale on guns international, as of right now. There are 3 on Gun Broker. Contrast that with 24 Darnes on GI, and 5 on GB.
You calling Darnes "Common" by the way?
That isn't exactly a bunch, or plenty, Larry, for the English gun. While I can't speak for sure on the 700s, almost every, single, one of the Darnes listed on either sight has significant, expensive, or, both, problems that need to be dealt with. Certainly, you can attest to that, no? We can assume a few of the 700s would have similar issues, I'd bet.
Further, I'm not positive that all 700s had the long chamber, either. Did the home market 700s typically get proofed at 2 3/4"? Bet at least some of the guns we see here came from old Blighty as used guns.
There is a problem with simply paying more for a gun because of the name that is on the rib. Doing that, you will miss guns like this one, which, give up little in quality, and certainly nothing in cost.
The OP certainly has a great gun, at slim money.
Interesting that Boothroyd puts the end of production for BSA guns a long time before those proof marks were hammered into the gun's flats.


Best,
Ted

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