doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J & W Tolley by Westley Richards?

Recently, I acquired this fine damascus BLE by J&W Tolley, Ltd. see: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=265536
for some photos.

The gun is in wonderful condition, and has some mysterious features that pique my curiosity:

- there are pins on the upper rear action sides indicating intercepting sears, but disassembly of the action reveals no actual intercepting sears inside.

- proof marks date to 1896-1904, but the gun has an address on the rib at: 5 Regent Place Regent St London, which Tolley apparently did not occupy until after 1909.

- the gun has Westley Richards type ejectors, and the top-lever is of the Westley Richards dolls-head type, although the lever is much slimmer than typically found.

- the gun was proofed for 1 1/4 ounces - does this indicate 2 3/4" chambers despite the 12/C mark?

Anyone out there have a similar gun, or care to comment on the mysteries of this lovely piece?

Thanks,

Mark Batten
Vancouver Island

I have a similar Tolley with 30" Damascus barrels. Mine is in less than perfect condition because the stock has been over sanded near the receiver and only one ejector functioned sporadically so after spending $300 to repair them I decided that it was fine as an extractor gun so I had the ejector springs removed. I kept the springs should a future owner wish to spend more money than me to fix them I have about $1000 total in the gun and shoot it occasionally, including last Saturday.

This gun also has the "Westley Richards" type cam top lever but, in addition to being narrower, their is no "slide" visible when the top lever is pushed to the right so the design is somewhat different. It does have an Anson & Deeley patent use number. The ejectors are "J. Dallaways Patent Ejectors". I spoke with Westley Richards and they told me that they have no records on guns sold in the white so there is no way to know if they build it.

My serial number is 68XX and dates between 1887 and 1894; it's marked "choke" which began in 1887 and the rib is engraved "1 Conduit St - Regent St London" an address they left about 1894. The gun is Birmingham proofed so there is no doubt that it was Birmingham made.

The 9100 on your gun is the serial number.

I read the thread you linked to on shotgunworld. Here is something to consider....you sound like you intend to sell the gun and are trying to ascertain value. One poster on the other thread gave an estimate in Britain of $2000 USD, and suggested that the retail price in the US might be double that.

Canada, GB and the US are all distinct markets. There are legal barriers to the free movement of firearms between them, the result being that they stay distinct. The Canadian market for firearms such as yours is significantly smaller and less vibrant than the US market, resulting in significantly lower realized prices.

If you want decent advice from participants in the Canadian marketplace join Canadian Gunnutz and start a similar thread in the sporting and hunting shotgun thread. You'll get good, local advice about the real value of your gun in the market you live in. A significant draw for membership at gunnutz is an buy and sell section called the EE. With 150,000 gun owning members, it gets the item in front of the potential market quickly.

BTW, I own a lovely J & W Tolley. I think very highly of them. But the market for English boxlocks with Damascus barrels is pretty weak. Were I to guess, I think you would do very well to realize an amount over $1500 Cdn. But that's just my thoughts....post on gunnutz and get 10 others' opinions.

Mine doesn't have ejectors, but the wood, engraving and damascus look similar (to be clear, not a Tolley just a trade made gun):


I would say if it fits you and you shoot it well and that is something you see yourself doing for the foreseeable future, unequivocally hold on to it. If none of that applies, send it to the auctions and take what you can get although the market on these IMHO doesn't seem to reflect their true value.

Your best bet, in order to ascertain it's actual condition, and thus shootability (and subsequent value), is to have a gunsmith who is familiar with English doubles inspect it. We are fortunate in that there is such a gunsmith not far away, in Halfmoon Bay, on the Sunshine Coast, "S.J. Newby Gunsmiths Ltd.". Stuart is a proper Birmingham trained gunsmith, and an excellent craftsman.

It's very likely, with 1 1/4 oz proof, that your gun came from the maker with 2 3/4" chambers. There are too many exceptions, I think, to state there's no chance it had 2 1/2" chambers--but highly unlikely. The Brits finally solved that problem in 1925 by adding chamber length as a proofmark, thus removing all doubt. As for the 12 over C, that is correct for a gun with chambers shorter than 3". 12 over LC was for guns with chambers 3" or longer.

Roalco, thanks for posting Newby's name. That's good advice and Newby and his proximity to the OP completely slipped my mind.

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. I must clarify that the "Shotgun World" link was only to show pictures of the gun that were posted by a previous owner (I should learn how to post my own photos on this forum). They were trying to ascertain an approximate value.
I'm the lucky guy who now owns it, and I don't plan to sell!

Anyone come across other boxlocks showing intercepting sear pins, but without actual interceptors inside the action like this one?

Looking at the marks it was originally black powder proofed then re-proofed for nitro under the 1896 1904 Rules at 2 3/4". No reason why they did not have it proofed and in stock for some time before they moved it on through their London outlet. Not unusual for action for guns to be traded between different firms or built under a Royalty system. At that time Tolley were more famous for big bore and wildfowling guns they were later bought out by Skimmin & Wood who made a lot of the little 2" chambered boxlocks you will find with a host of other names on. I have a 2/3" chambered Tolley wildfowl gun made in the early part of the last century with the Birmingham address on and a latter Tolley 2" guns made when they were owned by Skimmin & Wood who would have been entitled to use the Tolley name on their guns. It's an interesting company and guns they sold were generally of a good well made type. Lagopus.....

Another Tolley. This is their "Altro" model which was marketed as a combination waterfowl and live pigeon gun. A 3" BLE circa
1905-10 which is proofed for 4 Tons /in sq.It is alive and well and yesterday afternoon I took it out for some fresh air and it accounted for 8 snow geese.I hope yours gives you similar pleasure.