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or, maybe 9mm Kurz? I agree with another contributor, giving ein Scharfschuetzen soldat a cheap crappy double shotgun as a reward for sniping Allied personnel, just doesn't seem "Korrekt". If you go back to the first fotos, look at the milling marks on the side of the barrel lug- the foto with the gun broken open.

Easy to forge a script signature, such as Himmler's,even all of the Nazi thugs of that era. I would be very suspicious of this offering, and provenance would be very difficult. But still, there are TV shows about folks trying to find Hitler in SA, as the Mosad did with Adolph Eichmann in 1960--


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I'm not bashing Ed, in fact, I like Ed. But I don't understand this kind of hysteria associated with a Nazi (fake?) artifact. My dad was a tail gunner in a B-17 and I grew up around soldiers of both sides. Everybody talked freely about Hitler and the war. Heck the History channel, believe it or not, once showed history programs and a lot of them were about the Nazis. I even owned a P-38 with Nazi proofs and I never found it disturbing. Are people just making comments like this because they feel it will increase their socio-political standing? Please explain.
Originally Posted By: ed good
this thread is disturbing to me...hopefully, it will be removed from this fine forum...


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When I was in college, there was a german professor whose grandfather had served in WWI and whose father was drafted during WWII. They were not Nazi. She told a story of when her father received news of his draft, he asked his father what he should do. His father, the WWI veteran said, "do your duty, and surrender to the first American you find." Germany at the time had multiple political parties and power would get scattered. In order to form a government a party would have to form a coalition. That is how Hitler came to power. He had somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of the vote with the opposition scattered among several other parties. Certainly not all German people supported the direction their country went. It is never a good idea to ignore history.

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To answer IM's question, most folks don't have a problem with war trophies -- it's the (supposed) personal connection to Himmler that makes this one objectionable IMO.

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>>>Goering was one of the first SS members<<<
Never he was a member of SS, he was one of the founder of SA in 1922, Himmler was a member of SA since 1925 and changes Aug. 1925 to SS.
>>>but he was NOT the head of that evil sector of Hitler's paranoia.<<<
Certain, he was!

>>>True, the 101st. (506 PIR) units did capture Hitler's mountain retreat in Bavaria in 1945, and found a great deal of items and artifacts- but fresh plaster on the wall and a Heinrich Himmler POS Belgian double as his presentation gun- Why would Himmler stash it in Hitler's house- by then, he and Goering were both trying to sell out to the Allies, and escape Hitler's last days mandate to "destroy Germany"--<<<

The guard of Obersalzberg belongs all to the SS ( e.g. SS-Wachkompanie 9 ) and Himmler was direct the leader. Therefore it's possible that one of this soldiers has got this shotgun as a gift for good sniping from Himmler. Between the gun of the RIA auction and the fake in this thread is a difference in engraving and signature of Himmler. The signature is in Suetterlin (normal in this time) and the e (its like latin n) on the fake is missing.

Last edited by Ger; 01/20/17 03:11 AM.
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Hi Ger

what do you mean 'gun is a fake?
I'm sorry I'm not expert "
It would like more information "
Thanks a lot

Kind Regards

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Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


Do you mean 8mm Kruz? Like for the MP44?

The Krauts must have had thousands of these confiscated French shotguns. Why not give them away? It appears normal to me that they reproofed'em first, wasn't that normal for French and Belgian guns sold in Germany?

I can also imagine GIs picking through the piles of confiscated guns and picking out the ones will Himmler's signature. Of course, it also would be easy to replicate nowadays for false provenance purposes.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 01/20/17 07:20 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


It was either 7,65 Browning or 9x17mm aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz. Anyhow the price realized for Sir Winston's semi-auto Webley was only 5500 plus commission which is deeply emotionally disturbing when Nazi inspired trophy gun can bring over $80,000.

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Ken, either the Germans missed a bunch or else reproof was uncommon on the ones they confiscated. Quite a few French doubles floating around in this country, reported to have been war souvenirs collected by the GI's, without reproof. Matter of fact, I'd say a French gun with a German reproof is a pretty rare critter.

I often wondered whether the first classic sxs I ever owned--pre-WWII Sauer 16--might not have been brought home by a GI. None of the standard indications of a gun having been made for export. So probably a good chance it came home in someone's dufflebag, or else maybe was purchased by a GI in Germany at some point after the war.

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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
or, maybe 9mm Kurz?


It was either 7,65 Browning or 9x17mm aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz. Anyhow the price realized for Sir Winston's semi-auto Webley was only 5500 plus commission which is deeply emotionally disturbing when Nazi inspired trophy gun can bring over $80,000.


Does this mean that 9mm Parabellum was the same as 9mm Kurz and 9mm Browning? Also, I thought 7.65 Browning was the same as 32 ACP? Just trying to expand my pistol knowledge...

Thanks
Ken


I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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