March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
2 members (NZHunter, SKB), 296 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,373
Posts543,977
Members14,389
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By: Stan
Dan Moore, of William Larkin Moore, in the SSM article credited the demise of Arrieta with the economic collapse worldwide. I have a bit different take, for what it is worth. Arrieta, like many Spanish makers who are in financial straits, were makers of S x S guns only. When the favor of S x S guns waned, as it certainly has worldwide, their market began to dry up
--- snip ---
SRH


Sorry, but no.

Ugartechea made a full line of over/under shotguns (box lock and side lock) for decades and failed before Arrieta.

Dan Moore is partially correct, in that the banking crisis of 2008 2010 was a large stressor on the Spanish shotgun trade. But what killed Arrieta, (Pedro) Arrizabalaga, Ugartechea, Laurona, and Zabala Hermanos, and is killing AyA, Garbi, Grulla, and the rest of the Spanish artisanal shotgun makers is the political actions of the Spanish government (and to a lesser degree the EU and its regulation of firearm cross border movement).

This isnt a market problem; its a result of poor government policies.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
I do not discount your contention about the Spanish governmental policies, Kyrie. But, I'm not convinced that the Ugartechea O/Us were what the market wanted, or that the one example you put forth proves my point wrong. Perhaps they did a poor job of marketing them ....... perhaps they were ungainly. For some reason they did not sell. If they had, the results may well have been different.

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 308
Perhaps one of the major reasons is that few of the younger shooters seem to want ANY SxS.

At the shotgun ranges I visit, the shooters under 40 seem to favor O/U's and semi-auto's, all with choke tubes. A very few will ask to see my SXS.

They typically consider a SxS to be "GRANDPA'S GUN."

Kyrie #477425 04/09/17 10:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
One factor which is not to be underestimated is that modern agriculture practices has destroyed wild game all over Europe.
Large fields (>200 Acres), the destruction of hedges, fungicide application, pesticide, mechanized harvest etc has played havoc on partridges, hares, etc.
The population collapsed from the 1970s on.
What's good for yield is not good for birds.
In essence, this has annihilated the traditional hunting market.
Best regards,
WC-

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 717
Likes: 104
Owenjj3 Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 717
Likes: 104
The Spanish are most definitely artisans. Give them an H&H or a London spring-opener and they can reproduce them faithfully down to the Self opening mechanism (e.g. The Senior model). It is in the innovation department where they come up short.

As for their inability to produce a viable O/U, it may have come down to economics. The patents were long expired, so they could have easily cribbed a Woodward O/U. They must have tried. I think they could not deliver the equivalent O/U product at a significantly lower cost than the genuine article with the manufacturing methods available to them.

H&H, a venerable SxS manufacturer, was unable to deliver a truly successful O/U design until the 1990's. If they can survive, perhaps the Spanish can repeat the feat.


Owen
Kyrie #477436 04/10/17 12:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174
Originally Posted By: Kyrie


Sorry, but no.

Ugartechea made a full line of over/under shotguns (box lock and side lock) for decades and failed before Arrieta.

Dan Moore is partially correct, in that the banking crisis of 2008 2010 was a large stressor on the Spanish shotgun trade. But what killed Arrieta, (Pedro) Arrizabalaga, Ugartechea, Laurona, and Zabala Hermanos, and is killing AyA, Garbi, Grulla, and the rest of the Spanish artisanal shotgun makers is the political actions of the Spanish government (and to a lesser degree the EU and its regulation of firearm cross border movement).

This isnt a market problem; its a result of poor government policies.


I think the example of Ugartechea's O/Us is a bad example as they were copies of Merkels.... Not exactly the hottest selling design today. And I don't think they've even been offered for many years (though I may be wrong on that part). Had a more popular design and style been offered, who knows what could have happened.

And the problem does not lie entirely with government policies. There are market/demand issues... If you want proof, take a look at the used SXS market.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
Actually I think it is all down to marketing !
Holland & Holland could not actually make a decent O/U thirty years ago so they commissioned David Dryhurst and Richard Tandy of W W Greener to make a number of prototypes , then they got Perazzi to do something similar before they went into production with their modern day O/U which in my opinion at the beginning was frankly a disaster.
We the shooters and our sporting magazines promote the O/U and popularise them , but frankly there is nothing better or finer than a nice SxS but unfortunately we do not promote them.
Put on a serious SxS competition with good prize money and watch the SxS flourish.
Without doubt Arrieta make fabulous products , but without demand and promotion we have no market.
IF sporting writers were to promote the use of SxS and extolled the virtues of SxS's there could be a rush to bring them back.
Sadly most writers are now wet behind the ears young knowalls with no original ideas and only prepared to play to the piper's tune for a free day shooting or an all expenses paid bribe.
All this may sound like vitriolic rhetoric but I can assure you corruption is alive and well in journalism.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
The Spanish are past masters at copying someone else's designs. It's telling that they are known for that and not for their own designs. I did not know that the Uggie O/U was a copy of the Merkel, Adam. Small wonder it didn't sell. Didn't someone say "ungainly" in an earlier post?

Maybe the lack of vision and ability to come up with innovative designs of their own is finally catching up with them. No way do I believe it all can be laid at the feet of "poor governmental policies". And the argument that EU policies have partially caused the demise is curious, at best. The EU was formed in 1958, with Italy as one of it's founding members. Spain did not join until the late '80s as I recall. Italy's gun making industry is very healthy, Spain's is dying. How could you blame the EU policies which apply to both?

SRH

Last edited by Stan; 04/10/17 07:36 AM.

May God bless America and those who defend her.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
Stan,
I don't think the Italian Gun Making Industry is all that healthy.
Many of the smaller makers have liquidated exactly like Arrieta dfor exactly the same reasons.
Indeed Perazzi have been on the brink a number of times.
As I have always said poor marketing is largely to blame .
Kemen & Grulla have both made and still do make quality products , bot who has heard of them and who actually buys them nowadays , and why?

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,126
Likes: 1126
I would disagree with your contention that Italian gunmakers are not doing well, overall as an industry.

Would you share with us the names of the "many" that have closed, salopian? And, evidence that Perazzi has been on the brink of going broke "a number of times", too, please.



Thanks you, SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.067s Queries: 35 (0.039s) Memory: 0.8530 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 09:31:31 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS