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Since we're still engaging in conjecture and guessing games about the origin of this hammer gun, I'll toss out the theory that this could be some European version of a Lunch-Box Special with false proof marks to give it an air of legitimacy. That's as good as anything put out there so far. Larry seems to have it narrowed down to about a 50-60 year range somewhere between England, France, and Italy, but that will no doubt expand.

I was a bit taken aback to return here after a day of yard work and an evening of libations, to find that I was the victim of a full frontal Libtard attack from the usual gaggle of Obama worshipers. Actually, a few of the usual suspects are missing, so I'll conclude they all moved to Canada to live with King Brown after Trump won the election. I found it strange that Gladys... I mean old colonel, did not admonish Last Dollar for making not one, not two, but three posts that offered nothing pertinent to the topic... Just more of his usual agenda driven stupidity. And it was no surprise to see a snide, but totally off topic remark from dla (sic), the Liberal Left Mayor of Munchkinland. The ever brilliant Larry Clown is still IGNORING me by responding to me. Wow. And I am just devastated that poor pod is so traumatized that he can't share his info about his fine guns. Imagine how he'd feel when Jagermeister advised him to sell them and buy an A-5! Actually, I'm surprised he came back after that mean old franc-otte and Kensal beat up on him in 2012:

Originally Posted By: pod
frac-otte-kensalrise: well im old and a little forgetful and not the best english major or use of the english language but i try.
i want to thank you for making me feel like a dunce. i really dont poise a threat to your knowlege in the gun world. again thank you and i will remove myself along with many others from this forum you two should be part of the welcoming committe.


Of course, Last Dollar made a similar drama-laced farewell, but returned too. What is it with these guys who repeatedly respond to you when they claim to IGNORE you, and with the drama queens who leave in an estrogen fueled huff, but can't just stay gone? Must be a Liberal thing. And Leverhead apparently thinks that I'm bad for the forum and our sport, but Ed Good's anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric is OK for the forum and our sport. You can't make this shit up! I am totally unimpressed by all of them, but what the hell... I'll accept full responsibility for the fact that Dr. Gaddy and Lowell Glenthorne no longer post here if it makes him feel better.

But then, after Last Brain Cell... I mean Last Dollar, made his third off topic post with another salvo, along with his plea to return to the topic, which he himself had added nothing to, except his usual crap... and after the original poster Longwalker had exhorted all to play nice and return to the original topic... After all that... Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel, just couldn't resist returning with more of her own hypocritical and decidedly off topic whining and complaining.

Gladys just had to lecture LeFusil for saying that he appreciated what I say and do here. And wouldn't you just know it, none of the gaggle of Libtards had any problem with Gladys making yet another off topic post that contributed absolutely nothing to solving the mystery of the origins of the gun! Certainly not Last Dollar! Shocking! But Gladys obviously feels justified, as our self appointed thread moderator, don't you Gladys? I thought we had reached an understanding awhile back. Guess not. Here we go again.

Here's a thought Gladys, I mean old colonel. I'll agree to conform to your hypocritical and disingenuous idea of "manners" when you agree to stop being a tight-assed hypocritical pinhead. In other words, when hell freezes over. You also have to agree to stop these repeated thread diversions. Actually, there is nothing about you that I'd wish to emulate, ever. People like you with your faux civility disgust me.

LeFusil, thank you very much for your kind words. So sorry you had to endure a lecture from Mrs. Kravitz though. Now we'll both have trouble sleeping at night, having invoked her stern and frequently unintelligible disapproval.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted By: Saskbooknut
PSF is difinative smokeless proof, since 1951.
PF with the crown on this gun, indicates final proof perhaps, not specifying smokeless. I find it hard to believe that this gun would only be proved for black though.


PSF has been an Italian proof ("smokeless powder definitive proof") since 1925. But from 1925-50, it was surmounted by a crown. The crown was changed to the current star in a circle after that.

PSF stands for "polvere senza fumo"--smokeless powder.

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So then it would be:

Polvere Nera - Black Powder(Wirnsberger has it spelled Pulvere)

Polvere Senza Fumo - Powder without Smoke.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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So the issue here is that the subject gun is marked PF surmounted by a crown, and we have no reference to confirm this mark's meaning.

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Originally Posted By: Saskbooknut
So the issue here is that the subject gun is marked PF surmounted by a crown, and we have no reference to confirm this mark's meaning.


That is correct. The material I have on Italian proofs, from Lee Kennett, only goes back as far as 1920. Looks like what you have there is an earlier gun, before proofmarks became compulsory under Italian law.

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Ahhhh kieth, never disappointing!

To the OP, take note....only agree with his views, believe in his politics....or face his incestuous online bully tactics. He could actually be a study case for some psychology students, and has just added some more data to review. He has made himself the 'gate keeper' on this forum. much to many's chagrin. Has zero self control (as you will see with his response to me) and a true psychosis.

A beautiful gun BTW. That detail at the bottom of the barrel, at the action is quite nice. I wonder if it was forged on?

Welcome to one of the best, if not the best, doublegun forums around!

Last edited by dal; 04/28/17 10:20 AM.

Life is too short to have a 'hate on' for so many things or people. Isn't it?
Joined: Apr 2017
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There is a glimmer of joy and discovery in the responses I have received from my first ever post, but overshadowed with an overwhelming sense of disappointment. I was expecting enthusiastic discussion and sharing of knowledge about a subject we all have some enthusiasm for. Instead I got a really heavy dose of interpersonal attacks, peevish self interest, bad manners, and typical grumpy old man behaviour. I have been accused of being a grumpy old man myself far too often, so I aspire to better behaviour. I'm not sure I want to hang out on a site that is dominated by bad behaviour. Offer me some encouragement please.

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Reality says that as long as Keith is allowed free rein to bully and harass people this forum will continue to go downhill...Lots of really good folks here....BUT

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If you look at a lot of the post, most don't degrade like this and usually stay on topic. There is a lot of good info here so don't get discouraged, ignore the personality clashes, and if something gets aimed at you have a thick skin and don't fuel the fire. The one thing nice about sights like this is you can exit with a touch of a button and return after the fires burn themselves out or have gone on to attack someone else.

By the way nice shotgun, after seven pages it looks to be a very nice Italian hammer shotgun with German sourced barrels.

Welcome to the sight.


After the first shot the rest are just noise.
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Originally Posted By: Longwalker
There is a glimmer of joy and discovery in the responses I have received from my first ever post, but overshadowed with an overwhelming sense of disappointment. I was expecting enthusiastic discussion and sharing of knowledge about a subject we all have some enthusiasm for. Instead I got a really heavy dose of interpersonal attacks, peevish self interest, bad manners, and typical grumpy old man behaviour. I have been accused of being a grumpy old man myself far too often, so I aspire to better behaviour. I'm not sure I want to hang out on a site that is dominated by bad behaviour. Offer me some encouragement please.


I spend a lot of time reading old threads on this site, and the members here are a huge wealth of information. Unfortunately, this place is used as a battle ground sometimes. It's ugly, hurts the site, and paints an ugly portrait of a supposedly polite armed society.

It's best to ignore the cancerous arguments and focus on replies that are directly made to the OP, though I find that hard to do at times.


-Leverhead
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