doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unknown coat-of-arms

Having seen how fast the BBS universe could clarify
my unknown proofmark "WJN", I submit another
unknown- this time - coat-of-arms to the BBS-universe for comments/clarification.
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51684
It is embossed on a Purdey double RIFLE case ,
with lift-out-tray , canvas cover, the case and the cover in
immaculate condition, the coat-of arms embossed on the leather of the case.
It is a rifle case, because of the auxiliary labels on
the inside of the case-cover and the small compartments
within the case-cover to accomodate the rifle sights.
Unfortunately without the 2 Purdey rifles.
I contacted Donald Dallas, the author of the Purdey-book,
he does not know it.
The Purdey label is from the later years 1921-1938.
He told me that Purdey delivered according his research
for the book many double rifles between the wars to India.
I contacted Paul Roberts, he referred me to the London
India house, no answer from them on my e-mail.
Purdey's production from 1921- 1938 were 3661 , from 1929 -1938
were 1884.
Their records are conscentious, but its not feasible
to dare to ask them because of a coat-of-arms to
check up to 3661 records.
The crescent moon with five-pointed star is an Islamic symbol,
this together with the crossed sabres is the symbol of TODAY's
Pakistan army.
But we are speaking of the years before WW II.
My best guess this case belonged to an Indian dignitary of
Islamic faith , letter N the initial of a family-name ..?
To whom ?..
Someone out there in the BBS universe knows it.....
... and also which rifles were in there....

Felix Neuberger

LOTS to look at here!!
Especially pages 56 and 63/64
http://www.flagheritagefoundation.org/pdfs/emblems-of-the-indian-states.pdf

In India the Maharaja's were Hindus and the equivalent Muslim name was Nizam, as in the Nizam of Hyderabad. Could be a Nizam's case? I have a 16 Bore Manton double Howdah rifle that has a gold oval with the initials "WAKP" I inquired with the Indian for Guns sight and they said it probably was the Wazir Ali Kahn of Phulra and later became the Nizam of Phulra.

The style just doesn't look old enough. My vote would be something more contemporary, say within the last fifty years or so.

I suspect (and cannot prove yet) that the N represents "Nagar." Here are the Indian princely hereditary states before Indian/Pak independence beginning with an "N,"

Nabha in PEPSU - Hereditary salute of 13 guns (15-guns local)
Nagar Pakistani Frontier State
Nagod - Hereditary salute of 9 guns = Nagodh in Madhya Pradesh
Nagpur in Madhya Pradesh- Political Pensioner
Nahara
Naigawan Ribai
Nalagarh in PEPSU
Nalagarh in Himachal Pradesh
Nalia
Nandgaon in Madhya Pradesh
Narsingarh in Madhya Pradesh - Hereditary salute of 11 guns
Narsinghpur in Orissa
Narukot
Narwar
Nashipur
Naswadi
Naugaon
Naulana
Navagarh
Nawanagar in Saurashtra - Hereditary salute of 13 guns (15-guns local)
Nayagarh in Orissa
Nilgiri in Orissa
Nilvala
Nimkhera
Nobo Sohoh
Noghanvadar
Nongklao
Nongspung
Nongstoin

I suspect the coat of arms belongs to Nagar Frontier State located in the area between Gilgit and Hunza. That area was sensitive for the Brits because of its proximity to China and Russia and its Nizam was cultivated by the Sirkar (British Raj).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagar_(princely_state)

"Nagar was another small valley state to the north of Kashmir and shared the language and culture of Hunza. In 1931 it had a population of 13,672, much the same as that of Hunza. On 18 November 1947 its ruler, Shaukat Ali Khan (1909�2003) joined his neighbour in acceding to Pakistan."

Here is its location - you guys have to read "Where Three Empires Meet" to understand the relationship between Kashmir, Chitral and the Brits in this area. Chitral to this day is very closely watch/controlled by the imperial successors to the Brits - the Pakistan government.



I cannot find a published coat of arms for Nagar - but if a Purdy made it's way to to that area...all 13,000 inhabitants...most of them Shi'a by the way...there is no doubt that it went to Mir Shaukat Ali Khan the Nizam of Nagar. He was educated, wealthy, and very close to Mohd Ali Jinna, founder of Pakistan. He was born in 1917 and died in 2003 and was utterly committed to the idea of "Pakistan." The privileges of the Nizam of Nagar and all the remaining princely states in Pakistan were absorbed by the Pakistan State in 1971.



I can't find a family crest or a crest for Nagar. But, as an example here is the crest of the British era Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) when it was separated from Punjab about 1901:



And here was the flag of Hunza:



By the way, most Muslims in the area do not have "family names." i.e a baby is given a name...say "Ismail." a religious name is added before it...say "Mohammed." and a tribal, location, artisanal name after it..."Durrani." (the guy from the Durrani tribes) or "Rocketi" (rocket man) or "Dollari" (the man with the $ money) or "Kabuli" (they guy from Kabul). And they'll be known by other monikers as well... So unless there is a Persian connection (Zoroastrian origin and a long time tradition of family names) or modern day Pakistani in some contexts (also adopting family names) you can't tell the family by the name unless they add "son of" and "grandson of" or unless there's a title in the mix.

Not having a family name has obvious problems for the organization of a state. One of the first things Ataturk in Turkey did was to require the Turks to take family names. In Afghanistan, the Communists did the same thing but forbade people from taking tribal or geographic last names. So if an Afghan has a family name he's of Persian (Tadjik) origin or is a leftist.

Abdul is sometimes added to their names. This is equivalent tothe Semitic "Abd al" (son of). For the Indo-European languages of Persia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India etc..they had to add 5 vowels to make the arabic alphabet comprehensible..(Semetic languages have minimal vowels; "N nglsh ths s jst pssbl" ... but you can see the problem of trying to adapt a Semetic alphabet to a different language group. So in Persia-Afghanistan-Pakistan - it's "Abdul" (with the vowel) not the Arabic "Abd al".

I suspect a man who would be able to help you track down the correct family would be Walter Clode of Westley Richards. He spent many years after WWII buying guns in India and Pakistan.

Walter is retired now and, having recently lost his son Simon, may not be immediately approachable. I'd therefore suggest you contact Trigger at Westley Richards: anthony@westleyrichards.co.uk

Tim

Gentlemen,
thank you all for your valuable contribution.
I will give an interim status:
There are several web-sites which provide essential
information on emblems/coat-of-arms of India/Pakistan.
These are :
-above mentioned flagheritagefoundation
-above mentioned princely states of India/Pakistan
-almanachdegotha.org/volume India
-members.iinet.net.au
very detailed records on descendants
- and obviously detailed Google/inquiries.
My impression is there are 2 possible tracks to follow:
1. Princely states with initial N and who of the
dignitaries applied this emblem for himself.
2. Which princely states used this as state-emblem
and clarify the meaning of the associated letter N.
I believe the second one has a more realistic chance.
I found out that there are 5 states with this emblem,
Balasinor, Tonk, Mangrol and Pataudi and Dujana,
the latter 2 with practical same emblem shape...
The letter N could be simply the initial/abbreviation for
the Muslim ruler/leader/dignitary name of "Nawab".

Ad Pataubi:
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51712
This could be Nawab Muhammed Iftikhar Ali Khan , 8th Nawab of
Pataubi.
but I would rather opt for his brother, a military-leader,
Maj.-Gen. H.E. Nawabzada Muhammed Shr Ali Khan ..educated
also in Royal military college Sandhurst.
The present 10th Nawab , educated also in England, is a Bollywood celebrity.
I think I will simply ask him if he is aware if his grandfather
or grand-oncle had a pair of Purdey double bore rifles
and if he knows the whereabout of them. I will let him know
that I have the associated oak&leather case.
If this track is cold/void I will turn then to the
Dujana one.
Felix Neuberger
Postscriptum:
The whole story reminds me of a Springer double guncase
and I am wondering if history repeats itself.
I got this empty 20-bore Springer case when I visited Griffin&Howe
in New Jersey at one of my trips to the est coast
in the 90's. The case had a named storage label so it was
easy to find out which guns were in there.
I used the epilogue of my Springer article in DGJ summer
1997 to tell my multi-step tracking exercise, which ended
in vain at the son , daughter and stepdaughter of the
original owner all living in Texas.
3 months after the article appeared I got a letter from
an American hunter who told me that he once owned the
pair, had it serviced in Ferlach at one of his Europe
trips, but finally traded it in at a dealer for some other guns. The dealer could not tell me where the guns
finally went. I retried some years later with the same dealer,
hoping the guns could have reemerged, but the business
was already transferred to the dealers son and he
could not provide any clue.
So here we are and I am wondering if the story
repeats itself and may be this time with more luck and
the gunrack in which this pair of Purdey double bore
rifles are "residing" will be found ...