doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Frame size SxS

I read of true 16g frame & 16g on 12g frame & 20g on 16g frame & so forth.
My question is,"What size is a true 16g frame" ?
O.M

I don't mean to be cheeky, but it would be between 12 and 20.

SO, let me expand a bit.

Frame size is a function, at minimum, and I am speaking of SxS's here, of the measure between the cartridge primers, plus 2x the minimum chamber thickness the material requires. The shoulders can't be more narrow than that. So, it's also a function of barrel material.

Starting there, you cannot go narrower, because with the first cartridge the chamber would blow.

Moving backward, the width of the action has to contain all the parts, and give enough room for them to move.

Some actions are fantastic gems, so miniaturized.

I am fiddling with a Crescent 16 right now, a simple back action sidelock, crude in all respects, that functions perfectly with an action width of 1.40" and 2 1/16 across the shoulders.

In the hand it is very tiny.

And a set of Ithaca Flues model 12's, of the earliest derivation, that are scandalously light. Being box locks measuring 1.32" across the action, and 2.30 across the shoulders.

Point being, that they can only be so small and compact. It is a great expense creating an optimized action only a few Thou narrower than the 12, or larger than the 20.
You still need the lock work to deliver enough punch at the right spot to fire the cartridges, so some pieces need the same rotational mass.
And the volume produced doesn't always merit making parts a few thou narrower.
I can attest that the webs on these Fluesies are very thin.
And on some small 16's, the trigger work ends up so close it is hard to get your finger to the front trigger, or one with a glove, to the rear. You need a minimum length there that changes the trigger function.


Some day, I'd like to flush out Don Amos's database with some spin data pertaining to these American hardware store guns.

Moses,
To add to the confusion, Merkel makes their 16 ga. on a delightful 20 ga. frame.
Karl

And 'in the day' the better gunmakers would make a gun to order, e.g., a light 16, a standard 16, or a heavy 16, or even to a desired weight... and a lot of this was accomplished through the selection of the appropriate frame size.

Dam16SXS- What kind of width is your narrowest 16?
I can't imagine a different forging, just removal of more or less material to lighten them.

I have lighter barrel sets, thinner casting webs, hollowed out stocks, but within brand, I don't see any smaller lock parts within gauge.

In the U.S. most makers "got by" with a couple of frame sizes, L.C. Smith, Fox, Winchester Model 21, etc. Then there was the Brothers P. with so many frame sizes -- 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 1/2, 1, 1/2, 0, 00 and 000. Parker Bros. made 12-gauges on 1-, 1 1/2-, 2-, 3- and 6-frames and in late years the 1/2-frame that I've seen. I've seen their 16-gauges on 0-, 1-, 2- and 3-frames and 20-gauges on 0-, 1- and 2-frames.

I have Lefever 12 gauge guns of weights from 6�lb, 7�lbs, 7�lbs to 8lbs. The width & length of the bar is essentially the same on all of them. Each one has a different width & height of the standing breech plus a different spacing of the firing pin centers. Thus the barrel weights are also different.
A 16ga with the XX marked frame is narrower in the bar than any of these 12's including the lightest one even though the 16 weighs 6 3/4 lbs.
A 10 lb 10 ga has a wider bar as well as a massive standing breech with very heavy barrels.
So How many frame sizes are we speaking of here. Does just varying the standing breech constitute a different frame size or does it also require sizing the entire actio body.
A little 28 ga American Arms Co (Crescent) hammer gun has a very petite little frame with a weight of about 5 lbs. Personally I would call this a "True" 28 ga frame. Had the bar & body remained the same as a larger gauge with only the standing breech sized down for the smaller barrels I would not personally call it a "True" frame size for the gauge. To me to be considered a "True" frame size for the gauge it takes sizing of the entire frame, not just a fitting of the standing breech.

A H Fox has a true 16 gauge frame size. Bobby

I believe the Fox 16 ga. frame is the most perfectly proportioned of any make, of any gauge, boxlock built in America .......... maybe anywhere. It is sheer beauty, to my eyes. Pictures of them do not totally convey this proportion, but holding one in your hands the first time does, and is a revelation. It is just hard to stop looking at it for the first time.

SRH

A.H. Fox Gun Co. thought so too Stan: �The Most Perfectly Proportioned Small-Gauge Gun Ever Built�
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uy7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA121