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Joined: Mar 2005
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Good point. Certain areas have absolutely no good European doubles available and the auction sites can be tricky.

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Originally Posted By: canvasback
Rocketman's tables perfectly capture, based on real world examples, the value of branding. Learn how to judge the underlying gun, its original quality and current condition, and you can get to own and shoot fantastic guns for a fraction of the cost of London guns.

Where is it written that we do or should make money on every gun? We do our best....some work in our favour, some don't. But as rocketman's tables make clear, the same opportunity to make money exists for Belgian boxlocks as it does for London Bests

Larry, not to be picky but I don't need to know the brand value of a particular obscure Belgian maker. I just need to be able to judge the quality of the gun and have a sense of the brand value of all Belgian guns . Which is not much when compared to English guns.


I'd have to disagree with your comment about the brand value of all Belgian guns vs British. Within the past year, I've purchased a Francotte 14E and a Webley and Scott 700. Both 16ga, both similar condition (very good). I paid about the same for both. Looking at the market, I don't think you'll find Francotte suffers in comparison to well-respected makers of Brit boxlocks. Unfortunately! At one time they were sleepers on the market, but that's long since past.

I did pick up a Thonon sidelock at a nice price a few years back. But that might have been because I recognized two things the dealer in question did not: 1. It was Belgian. (It was marked as German, even though it said "Liege" right on the barrels, and the proofmarks were clearly Belgian.) 2. Thonon, although not a large maker, is one that's very well respected (as indicated above.) Knowing the brand value was a big help in that case.

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Bonjour Marc, J'espere que tu va bien, mon ami. Bienvenue sur le site encore!


Owen
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Owen, thanks for these welcome words. I know that they are ment.
Cheers and greetings from Beer and chocolate country, Marc.

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Originally Posted By: fallschirmjaeger
This has been an excellent discussion thus far. I know that most guns should be judged by the quality of the arm and not specifically by the maker...however, sometimes searching by makers helps narrow the field a bit. I also understand that there are high quality 'no name' guns and guild made guns out there. My problem is I live in an area where if you're looking for Stevens or Savage-Fox model Bs, there are guns a plenty. But if you are looking for European doubles, it is scant pickings. Most of my gun buying and searches occur over the internet and pictures are RARELY good enough to put too much faith in the quality of the gun. This is all part of a lifelong learning process for me and my knowledge up to this point is amateurish at best. So I thank you for the wealth of knowledge you gentlemen put into this forum and a special thanks to Marc for providing information from the home source of Belgium.


You'll probably have to travel some and visit some better high end gunshops for these Belgium doubles. There are some real sleepers out there from Belgium that are great upland game guns without the upland game gun price.

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Originally Posted By: GETTEMANS
Owen, thanks for these welcome words. I know that they are ment.
Cheers and greetings from Beer and chocolate country, Marc.



You just got back from Burge. Beer and Chocolate whistle ?? At least you are constant about your beer.

There are so many fine museums in Belgium and just about all have some firearms on display. The Curtis was remodeled several years ago. Many of their best items were placed in storage.

Pete

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown

I'd have to disagree with your comment about the brand value of all Belgian guns vs British. Within the past year, I've purchased a Francotte 14E and a Webley and Scott 700. Both 16ga, both similar condition (very good). I paid about the same for both. Looking at the market, I don't think you'll find Francotte suffers in comparison to well-respected makers of Brit boxlocks.

Continental guns work off the same tables as Brit. But, top continental Brand Values are at level three which is where the mass of Brit names fall. Belgian names that are most widely known and recognized by the market for high quality are Francotte, Lebeau, Bury, and ---- (one escapes my memory at the moment). They all have Brand Value level three (BV3). Names less well known and/or less well recognized for high quality will be Brand Value level four (BV4) and little known makers and/or those associated with lower quality guns are Brand Value level five (BV5). W&S is a BV3 Brit name. A Francotte 14E is very similar in o
Original Quality grade to a W&S 700. You noted similar Current Condition level. So, BV3-OQ6 (second grade BLE)-CC2 (slight use) = $3,101 and BV3-OQ7 (third grade BLE)-CC3 (significant use) = $1620. These two guns should price similarly and fall within this range of value.


I did pick up a Thonon sidelock at a nice price a few years back. But that might have been because I recognized two things the dealer in question did not: 1. It was Belgian. (It was marked as German, even though it said "Liege" right on the barrels, and the proofmarks were clearly Belgian.) 2. Thonon, although not a large maker, is one that's very well respected (as indicated above.) Knowing the brand value was a big help in that case.

Thonon should have BV4 as a less well recognized name but one associated with higher OQ guns. Value would be 1/2 of a similar gun with BV3 and 1/4 of a BV1. Remember the comparison must be for equal OQ grade and equal CC level.


DDA

Last edited by Rocketman; 08/03/17 11:16 PM.
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