doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Questions about steel shot and choke tubes

I think I became aware of fine double guns, reading Michael McIntosh in the early 1990's. Even then, steel shot was a concern.

Over the years since then, I've garnered from my reading the Double Gun Journal and the Shooting Sportsman, that steel shot and choke tubes are for the lower grades of firearms, and that truly fine guns only shoot lead or soft lead substitutes, and they never have any choke tubes, unless perhaps thin wall tubes added by Briley.

Are these prejudices still accurate? Do new side by side "best guns" come with choke tubes, proofed for steel shot, today?

The reason I ask, is that in America today, to shoot ducks and geese requires nontoxic shot, and almost all public hunting lands are requiring nontoxic shot, and the entire State of California, for hunting. The handwriting is on the wall, for target shooters and hunters on private lands, that someday nontoxic shot will be mandated by law.

And, I see seven dollars a box "cheap steel" loads. If those loads ever drop below the price of lead "promo loads", the lead loads will not be long available, at every big box store and gun shop.

There are many substitutes for lead shot, but only one seems to be economical to shoot a lot of shells, and that's steel shot.

And at the gun shows, the lower grades of old fixed choke shotguns are selling for less and less, every year. Like it or not, new shotgun users like and demand choke tubes.

Are the finest shotguns made on the earth, adapting to using steel shot, and the addition of choke tubes?

Simple answer, NO.

If you can afford one of those 'Best guns' you can afford the ammo it was intended to shoot. Not to be smart but those are hand built for each specific customer so you could call Holland & Holland to see if they will build you one.

I never liked the ballistics of steel so I'll pay the price for the alternatives to steel shot. What else can I do?

Please see GunsInternational #10096642.

I would say mostly no, but sometimes yes. Nobody wants thinwalls intalled in a nice American classic sxs, or an old London best in equally nice condition, but I have no problem with Teagues or Briley thinwalls in a gun ordered that way, regardless of the maker. I see that trend increasing rather than not.
JR

Zilch.
JR

I would think old soft solder giving away would be of more concern than chokes which could be opened to 3/4 constriction or less. Installing thin wall tubes seems like a waste of money and time.

The very finest British best guns, will always be worth owning, but they last for well over a century. One of my friends brought over a very nice W. Scott hammer gun, made with the thumbhole Purdey patent action, that was made in the early 1870's. He also had a I. Hollis hammer gun, not as high grade as the other, but still a very nice gun.

But as nice as those old damascus barreled, black powder shotguns are, they are worth only a fraction of what they'd be worth if they were made thirty years later with fluid steel barrels.

An old shotgun that requires expensive and hard to get ammo isn't going to be worth much, when that's the only ammo it can shoot.

One of the reasons I'm so fond of my old doubles, is that I can buy a box of cheap lead shell for five bucks and shoot them at the range with my friends.

I'm curious, if you wanted to shoot nontoxic shot that was soft enough for old double guns, how much a box would the shells cost?

The best price for 16ga Kent Bismuth used to be $12.97 or $12.79 for 10 shell pack at Cabela's when it was on sale. That is the least I have ever paid for new soft non-tox loads. The problems are they only come in #5 or #6 shot too "hot" for old vintage shotguns (desigend to function in old fixed choke repeaters like Belgian Auto-5, Model 12, Ithaca 37,......)and will probably never be seen at that price again. The new sale price is over $14.

I have good stash and if I ever buy vintage hammer gun I will make sure it has fluid steel barrels with plenty of thickness plus greener cross-bolt along with double Purdey underbites. Great Sauer & Son actioned German guns come to mind.

If lead shot were outlawed or regulated out of existence, then the price of soft nontoxic shot may fall somewhat.

But today, if you'd like a flat of one ounce RST 2 1/2 shells, that's $110 per flat.

If you'd like the same shell in Bismuth, they've sold out, but when they had them, they were $65 a box, $650 per flat.

Cheap steel shot loads are $70 per flat, at Walmart.

They don't sell many, yet, because Walmart also carries Federal cheap lead loads for less than five dollars a box.

In a hundred years, if it still costs almost ten times what it costs for cheap steel shot, the only folks shooting the finest game guns made today won't be shooting them very much.

Have you priced a bespoke James Purdey or Thomas Boss? If you're running around in those circles you're not worried about the price of a box of shells.

Go to this forum and look at the fees they pay to hunt in Africa.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve

Those good ol boys make a pretty good living.