doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What's proper on a side by side

Another thread is hashing out the propriety of converting a M21 to double triggers. In my mind it raises the question of what a M21 should be, and my mental image is that of a SxS with a pistol grip, single trigger, beavertail, and optimally a vent rib. It's the iconic image of a Winchester.

Along a similar vein, and without running to the books, I suspect that the majority of Smiths, Foxes, Parkers, and Ithacas had pistol grips. I know that runs counter to all the reproduction output of the last 25 years, but again the pistol grip is the (accurate) iconic image of the American shotgun.

I have trouble wrapping my head around the fervent need to fashion American classics in the mold of British classics. I have to believe there is some vanity or misplaced fashion at work here. Why give up the decided control offered by a pistol grip? Why the fixation on longer barrels when 20 years ago the London trade would have told you 28" tubes were what you needed, and the American trade was pushing 26" and 28" barrels for field guns. Lest we forget, 50 years before all that both sides of the water favored 30" tubes. If they couldn't make up their minds, why should we bother?

As to a single trigger or double, I can happily work with both and would not waste much effort trying to change a particular gun. I like beavertails on American guns, but think they look oddly transplanted on Continental guns (i.e., not iconic). Ditto vent ribs.

Why can't American guns be American-like, and European guns look like they're European? Someone will surely have an opinion.

Most of the American classics have half pistol grips which to me, offer the best of both worlds. Better control than a straight grip but still does not cramp the hand with one-handed carry through cover. I think that sporting clays has popularized longer barrels. 26" barrels on American classics are rare and people used to pay a premium for them. In close cover shooting, they work just fine and to me, it seems like the shorter sighting radius helps me to get on a speeding grouse, just a bit quicker. Perhaps it's just the change in balance? still would not buy a new double with 26" barrels because I believe it would be harder to sell. I like 28 inch barrels just fine.

I appreciate your sentiments - wait the rest will be along to crap on them shortly. I prefer my sxs slender and without frills. Beaver tail and vent rib don�t work for me purely from a cosmetic standpoint. I do prefer American guns and an English grip but suggest that the �English� grip is not solely a thing of British best sxs as many muzzleloaders and long rifles had just such.

If it hadn't been for the rest of the world the British would likely still be shooting muzzle loaders. With straight grips of course. Celebrating a denial of ergonomic or mechnical evolution is as troubling as it is problematic. A not uncommon celebration on this forum as it happens.
Ithaca5E - it is your mission to accept your role of honorable heretic. Besta luck.

I don't like beaver-tails unless I'm target shooting. If I'm shooting targets with a splinter I'm happy to wear a glove.

Straight grips cramp my wrist when I'm carrying the gun, so I want a relaxed pistol grip.

I don't care how long the barrel is, but I shoot better with longer barrels. 28" is fine by me.

I have no model 21s so I don't have to worry about how they're configured. If I had one though it would have to have two triggers...Geo

I'll take what ever you don't like. Just send it to me. Even ugly guns or dogs. Does not matter what gauge or length barrels. If I was serious about what I shoot this fun would quickly become work. Got enough of that already.

I am loading up reloads for the rest of my shooting needs for the year. Finished .410 with just under five thousand shells. Ran out of empties. Got to love getting 800 loads per bag of shot. Next will be three thousand in 28. Then 20 and 12's. Should take me most of my spare time for a few weeks. Much easier to just pick up ammo loaded on the shelf when I want to shoot than finding time to load the day before I want to shoot. Works well when you have several default loads which work in multiple guns for different game or clays.

What I will do to not watch basketball, college or NBA.

"Reproductions" don't always follow the originals faithfully. For example, you'll run across far more Parker Repros with ST than DT--but it's no contest that more of the originals had the appropriate number for a doublegun: 2.

I've owned 3 Model 21's: 2 16's and a 20. All 3 of them were DT, and only one had a beavertail. Certainly on later guns, BT's and VR's became more common. And I seem to recall that double triggers eventually disappeared on 21's, although I expect you could've ordered them on a custom shop gun. But among the early guns there was no shortage of splinters and double triggers. Because the 21 came along much later than the other American classics (and lasted longer), it makes sense that you see fewer guns with the standard features of those that first appeared half a century earlier--when it was rare to find anything other than DT and a splinter FE.

I have come to believe that "proper" is someone(s) judgement and rarely founded in facts, rather, usually founded in fashion. I plan to jolly well shoot what pleases me and not necessarily what fits to someone else's fashion. Time was I'd have said a proper skeet gun had 26" open choke barrels, beaver tail FE, vent rib, single trigger, and low, short stock. I don't say that anymore although I own one such and it do shoot skeet well. My current "worker-upper" has 32" F/Mod barrels, pudgy splinter FA, pigeon rib, double triggers, and stock to suit me. With 3/4 oz loads it is working well. One is no more proper than the other, IMO.

DDA

Back when Georgia had plenty of wild bobwhites I mostly shot a 20 gauge straight grip GHE Parker with 26 inch barrels sst and beavertail it was a deadly combination for me. Bobby

I don't care what kind of grip a double gun has. I prefer two triggers but that's not mandatory. I simply will not under any circumstances consider a double gun with a beavertail, even one as small as a .410. I don't want a vent rib on any gun but I understand that you will most likely have to settle for one on a currently made repeater or O/U. I once bought a double with one but I would not buy another one.