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Joined: Jun 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
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When did Smith start making their .410 side by side with
3 inch chambers?
Thank you
Mike
USAF RET 1971-95 ![[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]](http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/57865_80x60.jpg)
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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On introduction in 1926 the chambers were 2 1/2"  "Soon thereafter" the standard was 3", but the shipping records the LCSCA received from BBHC in Cody did not include .410 chamber length, so we don't now how "soon thereafter". The first 3" chamber .410 would be a nice addition to the L.C. Smith Chronology. See "The L.C. Smith Production Records" by Dr. James Stubbendieck, p. 104 Brophy didn't say, and Houchins (p. 391) only has a Hunter Arms Engineering Specification chart from 1936 showing 3"
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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In that the .410-bore 3-inch shell was introduced in mid-1933 along with the Winchester Model 42 pump gun, 1934 is probably a good date. That is when Ithaca Gun Co. began chambering their .410-bores for the 3-inch shell. Lots of earlier .410-bore guns were likely sent back to factories for 3-inch chambers, Ithaca Gun Co. offered that service, or were hogged out by local gunsmiths.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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This may be a candidate; 1929 .410 Specialty with the proper "CHAMBER 3 INCHES' mark 
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The question remains, did it leave the Fulton that way in 1929 or was it back to Fulton for the longer chambers after 1933?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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According to Ronald S. Gabriel's "American & British 410 Shotguns", L.C. Smith .410's were first put in production in 1926....Winchester created the 3" .410 shell in 1933 with the introduction of the Winchester model 42 which is credited as the first American shotgun chambered for the 3" shell. I could not find when L.C. Smith began chambering their guns for the 3" shell, but it had to be after Winchester developed it. I have no doubt some Elsie .410's were returned to the factory for chamber lengthening to 3".
la luz del conocimiento brillara' sobre ti
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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3" 12mm shells had been available in England for some time prior to 1933 http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=collecting-410-shotshells And I agree we'll need documentation in the surviving Hunter Arms shipping (unfortunately not order) records to confirm originality BTW: "Shooting Around The Clock" was conceived in 1923 by William Harden Foster, who was then editor and chief illustrator of both National Sportsman and Hunting and Fishing magazines. The discipline became "Skeet" in May 1926 and was aggressively promoted by Foster. By the mid-1930s the .410 was being used in competition in two classes: ".410 Long" with 3/4 oz. and ".410 Short" with 3/8 oz. shot.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,148 Likes: 1147 |
la luz del conocimiento brillara' sobre ti y esa luz alejará la oscuridad de la ignorancia Great question, and information. Thanks. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
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Another bit of info I gleaned from my "composed pair" of Ithaca 410 guns, the serial numbers indicated a particular year of manufacture, yet delivery dates from Walt indicated a few years later on one. That scenario might be an explanation for the 1929 example Drew has shown, vs the 1933 "legitimizing" of the 3" 410 in the U.S.. Also, although my two guns started production together and were given very close s/n's, they received different style forends, the change in style being a demarcation of production years. 
Last edited by Chuck H; 01/30/18 09:51 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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Good point Chuck. Courtesy of Dr Jim from the LCSCA FAQs In most cases, more information is available for shotguns made between 1918 and 1950. In addition to the information for the early guns, the books may include dates of starting, proofing, patterning, finishing, and shipping. The name of the company to which it was shipped and the order number are usually in the records. Occasionally, the name of the person ordering the shotgun will be noted, but many shotguns were ordered through a local or regional sporting goods or hardware company. In those cases, the name of the final purchaser was not recorded in the ledger. The shipping records usually contain a list of the options (such as REOBV which stands for regular weight frame, automatic ejectors, selective Hunter One-Trigger, beavertail forend, and ventilated rib) and occasionally contain special order information (such as a initials engraved on the trigger guard.) We've got a parallel thread going on the LCSCA Forum, but I've not heard from Dr Jim if he has run across a .410 special order chamber length in the shipping records http://members.boardhost.com/lcsmith/msg/1517270174.html
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