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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 112
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 112 |
I recently acquired my first two vintage 10 gauge doubles. The first is a massive English W.Richards hammer gun with 32" "London fine twist" tubes weighing a hefty 11 lbs/8oz. The chambers in that gun measure 3 1/4".
The second gun is a very early D grade Parker Lifter, with 28" Damascus Barrels, the gun weighs about 8 lbs. the chambers in that gun measure 2 3/4"
I think the English gun is way too early for 3" plus shells...
What ammo does the group think the two guns were designed for?
I love the look Hobbs, my Vizsla, gives me following my second miss in a row.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693 Likes: 450
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693 Likes: 450 |
That 3 1/4 shell did not have a real heavy payload. They used the extra space to add extra wadding. I would expect the 3 1/4" shell to be just about the same as the 2 5/8" shell.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6 |
I have an Ithica Crass 30 in. damascus 10 ga. with a sub-10K serial number from about 1889 with 3" chambers. It weighs 8 1/4 lbs. I shot 1 1/4 oz. loads in it from 2 7/8" cut down Federal hulls. There were all sorts of 10 ga. chambers evidently.
W. E. Boyd
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
Please post images of every mark on the action and barrel flats of the W. Richards. "London Fine Twist" usually implies a Belgian maker. Feb 24, 1900 Sporting Life The Winchester people offer the Repeater in 10, 12, 16 and 20 gauges, loaded with any of the standard brand of Nitro powders; the maximum loads for this shell being 10-gauge, 3 1/2 drams powder, 1 1/4 oz. shot (shell boxes list 28 grains Ballistite or Laflin & Rand Bulk Powder). Until the 1920s, the heaviest North American factory loaded 10 gauge shells offered were 1 1/4 ounces of shot with 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. of smokeless powder in a 2 7/8 inch case. There is quite a bit of information on the PGCA site regarding the "Short 10" http://parkerguns.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 598 Likes: 58
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 598 Likes: 58 |
I have a Damascus barrel Smallwood 10 bore which has 3 1/2" chambers, probably opened up from 2 7/8", and reproved with superior nitro proofs. I have not been able to find CIP service data for 3 1/2" 10 bore. I would not shoot anything heavy because of the old wood, but would like to know what it is meant to handle.
Thanks.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I have a Rod Cocking, Side Pivot top lever Lefever, so built around 1890 which has 3" chambers. This is a 32" 10 lb gun. I have a 12 gauge W Richards with Birmingham black powder proofs which has a similar rib marking to yours, don't recall off hand exactly. It has been suggested this one was likely built by J P Clabrough. The proof marks will tell its origin of birth, but it is not connected with Westley Richards.
"Most" early American built tens will be found with 2 5/8 or 2 7/8 chambers but other lengths were available on order.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 866
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 866 |
huntermn, If your W.Richards is the W.Richards of Liverpool,you have a gun by a very good English maker.I have a W.J.Jeffrey & Co. 10 bore hammergun that weighs 11 lbs. 2 oz. with 33" damascus barrels that was chambered for 3 1/4" 10 bore Perfect cases,(engraved on the underside of the barrels),which were thin brass cases that took 9 bore wads and the gun according to "The Gun and It's Development"by W.W.Greener,was proofed for a service load of 4 1/4 drams of black powder and 1 5/8 oz of shot.The proof load was 8 1/2 drams of black powder and 2 1/8 oz. of shot.The gun was built in 1896.The bore dimension at proof was stamped 10/2 which is almost 9 bore.Very big difference between the load of a 2 5/8 shell (1 1/8 oz.) and the magnum wildfowler.
Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought stupid,than open it and confirm.
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35 |
Dr. Drew: I posted my question to the wrong topic. Sorry for the confusion. My question is in year 1900 what was Winchester's offering in the 20 bore? Thanks RLP
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
Up until about WWI the standard 20g load in the U.S. was 7/8 oz. with 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. Bulk or Dense Smokeless powder at 1155 fps; in a 2 1/2" case. 7/8 oz. with 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. at 1210 fps had been the standard British 20g load even before the 20g was offered by U.S. makers.
The Winchester Repeater had only 2 Dr. Eq. in 1900
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi. 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.
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