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Joined: Oct 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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I recently acquired my first two vintage 10 gauge doubles. The first is a massive English W.Richards hammer gun with 32" "London fine twist" tubes weighing a hefty 11 lbs/8oz. The chambers in that gun measure 3 1/4".

The second gun is a very early D grade Parker Lifter, with 28" Damascus Barrels, the gun weighs about 8 lbs. the chambers in that gun measure 2 3/4"

I think the English gun is way too early for 3" plus shells...

What ammo does the group think the two guns were designed for?


I love the look Hobbs, my Vizsla, gives me following my second miss in a row.
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Sidelock
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That 3 1/4 shell did not have a real heavy payload. They used the extra space to add extra wadding. I would expect the 3 1/4" shell to be just about the same as the 2 5/8" shell.

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I have an Ithica Crass 30 in. damascus 10 ga. with a sub-10K serial number from about 1889 with 3" chambers. It weighs 8 1/4 lbs. I shot 1 1/4 oz. loads in it from 2 7/8" cut down Federal hulls. There were all sorts of 10 ga. chambers evidently.


W. E. Boyd
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Sidelock
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Please post images of every mark on the action and barrel flats of the W. Richards. "London Fine Twist" usually implies a Belgian maker.

Feb 24, 1900 Sporting Life
The Winchester people offer the Repeater in 10, 12, 16 and 20 gauges, loaded with any of the standard brand of Nitro powders; the maximum loads for this shell being 10-gauge, 3 1/2 drams powder, 1 1/4 oz. shot (shell boxes list 28 grains Ballistite or Laflin & Rand Bulk Powder).

Until the 1920s, the heaviest North American factory loaded 10 gauge shells offered were 1 1/4 ounces of shot with 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. of smokeless powder in a 2 7/8 inch case.

There is quite a bit of information on the PGCA site regarding the "Short 10"
http://parkerguns.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

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Sidelock
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I have a Damascus barrel Smallwood 10 bore which has 3 1/2" chambers, probably opened up from 2 7/8", and reproved with superior nitro proofs. I have not been able to find CIP service data for 3 1/2" 10 bore. I would not shoot anything heavy because of the old wood, but would like to know what it is meant to handle.

Thanks.

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I have a Rod Cocking, Side Pivot top lever Lefever, so built around 1890 which has 3" chambers. This is a 32" 10 lb gun.
I have a 12 gauge W Richards with Birmingham black powder proofs which has a similar rib marking to yours, don't recall off hand exactly. It has been suggested this one was likely built by J P Clabrough. The proof marks will tell its origin of birth, but it is not connected with Westley Richards.

"Most" early American built tens will be found with 2 5/8 or 2 7/8 chambers but other lengths were available on order.


Miller/TN
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Sidelock
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LGF: It's at the top here
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7

Service 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
Proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi

Ah, that time bomb Damascus wink

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Sidelock
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huntermn, If your W.Richards is the W.Richards of Liverpool,you have a gun by a very good English maker.I have a W.J.Jeffrey & Co.
10 bore hammergun that weighs 11 lbs. 2 oz. with 33" damascus barrels that was chambered for 3 1/4" 10 bore Perfect cases,(engraved on the underside of the barrels),which were thin brass cases that took 9 bore wads and the gun according to "The Gun and It's Development"by W.W.Greener,was proofed for a service load of
4 1/4 drams of black powder and 1 5/8 oz of shot.The proof load was 8 1/2 drams of black powder and 2 1/8 oz. of shot.The gun was built in 1896.The bore dimension at proof was stamped 10/2 which is almost 9 bore.Very big difference between the load of a 2 5/8 shell (1 1/8 oz.) and the magnum wildfowler.


Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought stupid,than open it and confirm.
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Sidelock
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Dr. Drew: I posted my question to the wrong topic. Sorry for the confusion.
My question is in year 1900 what was Winchester's offering in the 20 bore?
Thanks RLP

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Up until about WWI the standard 20g load in the U.S. was 7/8 oz. with 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. Bulk or Dense Smokeless powder at 1155 fps; in a 2 1/2" case.
7/8 oz. with 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. at 1210 fps had been the standard British 20g load even before the 20g was offered by U.S. makers.

The Winchester Repeater had only 2 Dr. Eq. in 1900

7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.


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