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Forums10
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Mar 29th, 2024
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Sidelock
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This is a fascinating but seemingly unsolvable problem to discuss.
I have no engineering or higher physics education, but Ive read entirely too many old gun books and shot so many patterns on a plate, that Im a waivering, doubtful, bitter clinger to the idea that maybe, perhaps, there is still enough mystery and art left to shotgun patterns as to occasionally allow a well choked gun to escape the long dead hand of Herr Dr. Gauss.
To restate the original posts question to suit the hypothetical:
1. Is is possible to cheat normal Gaussian distribution of shotgun patterns by using a recess (jug choke) before a full (.35-40 thousands) choke to obtain hot centers where the pellets in the center are denser than normal,,,
2. Or do the iron laws of normal (Gaussian) distribution mean that no matter if we lengthen forcing cones, use conical, elliptical, parallel, recessed, or swaged or collet chokes, folded crimped hulls with plastic, cushioned, protective wads with nickel plated shot,,,,or not,,,mean that all shotgun patterns remain the same, only at different distances from the muzzle?
If the scientists are right, then better patterns are therefore impossible, we can only shoot smaller or larger circles on the plate, at a given distance.
Almost, I am persuaded to be a scientist about choke.
But with quavering faith, I read again my W.W. greener and Bob Brister, shoot a few more patterns on a plate, and the spark of hope still flickers, there might be the one, true choke that produces hot centers, but not too hot, minimal shot balling, patchiness, and fliers, and spreads quickly an inch per yard out to twenty yards and slows the spreading after thirty yards, almost holding that pattern out to about forty yards, and leaving a hot center to break targets and kill birds out to sixty yards, perhaps a bit beyond that.
I even think I own a few of those artistically choked guns.
They tend to be 12 gauge guns with about 12-13 thousands constriction.
Not quite a light modified, but an improved cylinder, plus.
There might be such a unicorn of a full choked shotgun, if there was a recess choke of a thousandth just before the choke, that makes exceptionally hot cores.
If not, its pretty to think there is.
,
Last edited by 992B; 04/08/18 11:56 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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You can start with Neil Winston http://www.claytargettesting.com/index.htmland his EXTENSIVE postings on trapshooters.com all data based fact
Dr.WtS
Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked
available by subscription
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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This is a fascinating but seemingly unsolvable problem to discuss.
In my mind it is solved. Read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" by Dr. A. Jones.
I have no engineering or higher physics education, but Ive read entirely too many old gun books and shot so many patterns on a plate, that Im a waivering, doubtful, bitter clinger to the idea that maybe, perhaps, there is still enough mystery and art left to shotgun patterns as to occasionally allow a well choked gun to escape the long dead hand of Herr Dr. Gauss.
There is no escape. Gauss works, but Rayleigh is the real hero.
To restate the original posts question to suit the hypothetical:
1. Is is possible to cheat normal Gaussian distribution of shotgun patterns by using a recess (jug choke) before a full (.35-40 thousands) choke to obtain hot centers where the pellets in the center are denser than normal,,,
NO, absolutely not. But it is really Rayleigh.
2. Or do the iron laws of normal (Gaussian) distribution mean that no matter if we lengthen forcing cones, use conical, elliptical, parallel, recessed, or staged or collet chokes, folded crimped hulls with plastic, cushioned, protective wads with nickel plated shot,,,,or not,,,mean that all shotgun patterns remain the same, only at different distances from the muzzle?
Yes.
If the scientists are right, then better patterns are therefore impossible, we can only shoot smaller or larger circles on the plate, at a given distance.
So what is a "better" pattern? There are a few things that have effect on choke effect beyond constriction, but not nearly as much effect as constriction.
Almost, I am persuaded to be a scientist about choke.
Do it. Just do it.
But with quavering faith, I read again my W.W. greener and Bob Brister, shoot a few more patterns on a plate, and the spark of hope still flickers, there might be the one, true choke that produces hot centers, but not too hot, minimal shot balling, patchiness, and fliers, and spreads quickly an inch per yard out to twenty yards and holds that circle out to about forty, leaving a hot center to break targets and kill birds out to sixty yards, perhaps a bit beyond that.
Read Jones. He is the only one to do nearly enough research with statistical analysis to really tell us the truth. Shotgun patterns absolutely must be treated statistically to actually extract data from noise.
I even think I own a few of those artistically choked guns.
Oh, for sure there are magic shotguns. This happens when a shooter comes into a gun that fits him at eight points. Unfortunately, shotguns are quite picky about displaying magic. Just as one mans ale is another's poison, one man's magic shotgun is another's tomato stake. When you are shooting a sudden death at a competition and you opponent is down one, believe with fervent passion that your magic thunder stick has magic chokes reamed and polished by an elderly elf living in a remote forest visited by gunmakers only upon a commission for a magic choke.[/color]
They tend to be 12 gauge guns with about 12-13 thousands constriction.
I'm not going to get into this.
Not quite a light modified, but an improved cylinder, plus.
No, sir, you are on your own.[color:#FF0000]
There might be such a unicorn of a full choked shotgun, if there was a recess choke of a thousandth just before the choke, that makes exceptionally hot cores.
If not, its pretty to think there is.
Truth, but in good humor. ;-} DDA
Last edited by Rocketman; 04/09/18 12:22 AM.
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Winston is under the influence of Dr. A.C. Jones, the worst nemisis that faith based chokesmiths encounter. Dr. Jones, is the AntiEyster. There are times I believe Dr. Jones is correct, and there is no salvation or escape from normal distribution of pellets in the circle. But then, why do spreader loads work? Has all the treasure and labor spent on harder, rounder shot protected from deformation in forcing cone and choke, been wasted? Why do the makers of card shooting (turkey shoot) guns tend to gain and keep their reputations by repeated wins of their guns at contests? Was Bob Eyster, just a shyster? And why did all the gun scribes from Greener to Brister believe that choking was both art and science? I almost believe Jones is right. There are advantages to a purely normal distribution of all patterns. For one thing, you could shoot all patterns at ten yards, measure the circles, and be done with patterning. That is where to start patterning. A full choke pattern is close to five inches, maybe six, at ten yards. A cylinder bore pattern at ten yards is about fifteen inches, maybe a bit more. All the other chokes will print circles between five and fifteen inches. Then, its fun to start stepping back to twenty, thirty, forty, yards and further, to see how even they are, how quickly they spread, if they have hot cores, or excessive shot balling, or fliers. If Dr. Jones is right, patterning shotguns beyond ten yards is just purely chasing moonbeams. Theres no fun, in that. Wed rather pretend we are searching for grails.
Last edited by 992B; 04/09/18 12:25 AM.
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Your theory of a choke just ahead of a choke has already been marketed. It's not a jug choke ahead of choke, but it is "two in one". It's called the Brain Choke (ironic, eh?). You can read all about it here. https://brainchokes.com/en/inner-profile/ Note the street address (color added) 42A Tzavella str, N. PsychikoP.O. 15451, Athens Greece I wanted to say, you can't make this stuff up, but somebody did. That said, if someone would donate me a choke tube to fit one of my shotties I will be happy to do an impartial test on my plate. After all, they were only looking for the same thing we all would like to have ...............equal density from edge to center to edge. Holy grail, indeed! SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Was Bob Eyster, just a shyster?
Do you mean the late Ken Eyster, with his art and science carried on by son Jim? Kenny sure attracted many of the top sporting clays shooters 'though many never talked about bore and choke work by the man.
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Jug chokes? That's what choke tubes are, and I suspect we all have one or two lurking about in the safe. Mine print cores, just like fixed chokes. I doubt you can look at a pattern and say it was generated by a fixed choke, a jug, or a choke tube, so I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no verifiable advantage (desirability) to a jug choke.
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Was Bob Eyster, just a shyster?
Do you mean the late Ken Eyster, with his art and science carried on by son Jim? Kenny sure attracted many of the top sporting clays shooters 'though many never talked about bore and choke work by the man. Yes, I meant Ken Eyster. Thanks for correcting me. Hes not the only custom chokesmith. If Dr. Jones is right, then all the custom chokesmiths that have ever lived, or will live, are in the same category as the certified psychics and telepreachers you see on cable television. According to Dr. Jones, there are no fliers, no hot cores, and no patchiness, and even shotballing, are all merely a normal distribution curve. All choke does is press down the shot charge, so that the pattern spreads according to normal distribution later rather than sooner.More choke effect, smaller circles, less choke effect, larger circles. The dead hand of Gauss determines all patterns,,,,except spreader loads. The disciples of Dr. Jones, say that all patterns will be the same, just at different distances from the muzzle, and they spread their heresy to all nations. Hard shot, just is affected more by choke. Soft shot requires more choke. All choke can do is make smaller circles. All the old time chokesmiths, preach and practice the religion that better patterns are possible by harder, rounder shot, and better choke work. If Dr. Jones is right, all the chokesmiths are wrong.
Last edited by 992B; 04/09/18 09:29 AM.
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You can have science based on experimentation or "faith-based".
The two camps will never be reconciled.
I'm with Dr. Jones and Neil Winston.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Winston is under the influence of Dr. A.C. Jones, the worst nemisis that faith based chokesmiths encounter. Dr. Jones, is the AntiEyster.
I'll go with Dr. Jones
There are times I believe Dr. Jones is correct, and there is no salvation or escape from normal distribution of pellets in the circle.
Go with Jones.
But then, why do spreader loads work?
They are designed to input a small amount of energy into the shot column at muzzle exit. This slightly defeats the choke effect. Ergo, you have a lower choke.
Has all the treasure and labor spent on harder, rounder shot protected from deformation in forcing cone and choke, been wasted?
No, but for some of the hoped for results.
Why do the makers of card shooting (turkey shoot) guns tend to gain and keep their reputations by repeated wins of their guns at contests?
People tend to see what they believe.
Was Bob Eyster, just a shyster?
No, but I don't have faith in his product.
And why did all the gun scribes from Greener to Brister believe that choking was both art and science?
Because they didn't have statistical analysis for their patterns.
I almost believe Jones is right.
There are advantages to a purely normal distribution of all patterns.
Yes.
For one thing, you could shoot all patterns at ten yards, measure the circles, and be done with patterning.
That is where to start patterning. A full choke pattern is close to five inches, maybe six, at ten yards. A cylinder bore pattern at ten yards is about fifteen inches, maybe a bit more. All the other chokes will print circles between five and fifteen inches.
Then, its fun to start stepping back to twenty, thirty, forty, yards and further, to see how even they are, how quickly they spread, if they have hot cores, or excessive shot balling, or fliers.
If Dr. Jones is right, patterning shotguns beyond ten yards is just purely chasing moonbeams.
Theres no fun, in that.
Wed rathe
DDAr pretend we are searching for grails.
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