doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Jug Choke "hot center"

Welllll, lemme see now - what does the data support?

Let's look at the data available obtained and analyzed either supporting the barrel/choke gurus or that that they themselves offer up. Oooops - there ISN'T any!!! Nothing but opinions!
Now let's look at the data on the other hand. The problem is where to start with the wealth of data supporting the anti-gurus. As I suggested before, Mr. Winston is an excellent entre to that fund of information.

It's not a matter of faith or belief. What does the data support? That is the only real world approach.

And in the final analysis it is still only a shotgun. Get over it.

I�m a doubting Thomas, but still barely with Greener and Brister, and all the others that have grasped for the grail of �better� patterns.

And I do think some reconciliation of science and art of choking shotguns can be made.

Even Dr. Jones looks at the corrupted patterns of spreader loads and makes exception for those.

And while W.W. Greener certainly was a good promoter, he believed in himself, and wasn�t a fraud. Neither was Brister or Eyster. They all recognized all patterns have a bit of the roulette wheel to them. They said patterns were the result of science, art, and chance.

If you have an old gun with a Polychoke, it�s easier, but in these modern times you can take any shotgun above .410 gauge that has interchangeable choke tubes, and conduct this simple test on a patterning plate, or on butcher paper.

Take a box of shotgun shells, all the same load, factory loads leave less to chance, and a shotgun with a device to vary the chokes,,,that�s the same type of choke. Measure exactly 30 feet back from the pattern plate. Make a mark on the ground. Put the end of the muzzle directly over that mark and fire a series of patterns at the plate, from true cylinder bore (threads for a choke tube gun) to the tightest choke you have.

Here�s one I did with an Auto Five Light Twelve with a Deluxe Polychoke.

https://imgur.com/a/DFGJ3

Here�s another using six extended choke tubes with an SKB 685, top two rows, the bottom row other guns.

https://imgur.com/gallery/RZMkd

What will always happen, every time you try this, will be as the choke constriction gets tighter the circles shrink. You don�t need to average patterns or make calculations. At ten yards 40 thousanths of choke makes a smaller circle in the plate than 25 thousandths which makes a smaller circle than 20 thousandths, on down to cylinder bore, which will have the widest circle.

This is the ten yard patterning shortcut Jack O�Connor wrote about in �The Shotgun Book�, but he didn�t claim to discover it.

Now, if the scientists are right, it should be possible to shoot a wide cylinder bore pattern at ten yards, of whatever size circle the choke and load shoots, say 15 inches, and then put in a full tube (or screw the Polychoke down to full) and start stepping back to where there�s a 15 inch full choke circle pattern on the plate, and there won�t be any differences (except normal distribution) between the 10 yard cylinder patterns and (let�s say) 15 yard full choke patterns.

I�ve tried to do that, but when I try it, the full choke pattern can be made to shoot an identical size circle, at some further range, but it will have a denser core and not be as evenly distributed as the identically sized pattern from the cylinder bore shot at closer range.

And if you shoot the cylinder at 15 yards, and step back far enough with a full choke to duplicate the same circle, the differences are even more apparent.

The scientists may either deny that�s so or say that�s merely normal distribution, and I�ve not actually duplicated the circles.

But try it and see, and I think you�ll cling to the faith that it�s possible to have better patterns, not just tighter ones.

Brister named his book well.

Patterns are the result of art, and science, both.

I am not sure that the discussion of pattern variability is JUST about choke. Bill Nittler regulated the barrels of a couple of guns for me and he said that the interior profile of the entire barrel had an influence on the patterns obtained. He actually was able to produce the exact pattern percentages (within 1 % - 2%) that I requested with the ammunition that I provided.

My question is... how much actual variability is there between patterns produced from the same gun under repeated, identical test conditions??

There is sufficient evidence (with photographic proof) of powder varieties yielding differing core densities with otherwise identical reloads of the same shot charges through the same barrels that I'm comfortable altering results via shell choice. To be fair, I've only had one barrel jug choked in order to restore choke rather than an attempt to improve its existing performance.

C'man,

It's according to what you mean by variability. No two patterns are the same. So, there is variability between every pattern ever shot. Are the voids in the pattern in the same place every time the same gun and load is shot? No. I have only seen one gun in my life that did that, and I have mentioned it numerous times. It shot a donut pattern with a hole in the center .............everytime. That is an anomaly.

But, there is enough certainty that a cylinder will shoot a cylinder sized pattern, and that a modified will shoot a modified sized pattern, that we can pretty well bank on it. IOW, the overall diameter of the pattern will be very reliable, while the location fo the patchiness will not.

That may or may not be adressing your question (?).

SRH

P.S. This is assuming the exact same load is used.

Stan - - That answers most of my question. I was interested to know if anyone might know the variability of distribution - the percentages that show in the 30" circle.

I expect that, while the actual percentage of pellet strikes inside the circle are fairly consistent, it IS a Monte Carlo distribution and the percentage may vary some amount shot to shot under identical conditions. Maybe 5% or so?

Good question about the percentages. I haven't a clue, but would hazard a guess that they are more than 5% in variability.

SRH

If only we could get that perfect distribution of pellets, evenly in a pattern. Then on crossing birds I want he pattern to be either a horizontal oval or a rectangle to give me even getter chance of hitting my target. Bought a screw in choke tube which was designed to flatten a pattern but all it did was shred wads, give extra muzzle jump and ruin patterns. It is in a drawer somewhere. More gun junk like we all accumulate.

Years ago, before we had screw in choke tubes for tubes in Skeet guns, I had a friend order a set of tubes with .020 chokes in everything. From there he patterned everything as he reamed out the chokes to get his �best� pattern distribution. To him he had the perfect patterns and guarded the information for years. After he passed away I bought his tube set and found his perfect constructions were slightly tighter in the 20, .010 and .012, 28, .008 and .013 and the .410 was .013 and .016. So he was slightly tighter than normal but when you patterned the tubes, different loads gave vastly different results. With his loads they gave very nice patterns.

He picked his �load� and only considered that load when he patterned his gun. Different loads would make more open or tighter patterns so great that I concluded plus or minus one degree of choke could be just due load or shot size chosen. Made life simpler when I found a few loads which would give me what I wanted in patterns without having to alter chokes or change chose tubes. I am for any thing I can do to a gun without altering the gun in a permanent way. I�ve seen too many guns with reamed out chokes already to add more to the group.

Amen. Excellent post.

SRH

Jon, the first gun I ever had a choke opened on was done by an amateur, and the muzzle shows a strong bias toward one side. That barrel shoots sort of a left to right smear rather than a round pattern. I think it helps on a dove going across in a hurry...Geo