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Joined: Jan 2010
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This is a gun my buddy picked up a couple of weeks ago. It's a hammer double for BP, and is tiny. I'll try to post a picture or two here, but don't know if it will work.

It's about 4 1/2 pounds and truly lovely.




Last edited by Genelang; 04/27/18 11:28 PM.
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It will be a handy little gun. Being proofed for black powder it may well have 2 inch chambers as they were standard until around 1913. No great problem if you load for it. 1 Dram of powder to 3/8th. ounce of shot with card and felt wads and a roll crimp works fine. The early ones were never meant as sporting guns but as guns for people collecting specimens for taxidermy. I have had a couple lengthened to 2 1/2" in the past and re-proofed for nitro. Lagopus.....

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Very nice.


Rust never sleeps !
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Gene: Prior to the mid-1910s, these guns were chambered for 44 XL and .44-40 shot
http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwpre410.html

.410 shells can not be safely used in either

If you could post up close high resolution images of every mark on the action and barrel flats we might be able to ID a maker. Janssen Fils & Cie made many for the U.S. market, and the mark may be inside the lockplate



What is the name on the lockplate?

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It's not my gun and I can't get a close-up. It's got about 14 1/4 LOP, an adult size. I am getting the Belgian BP from another source. Next time I look at it, I'll do a better job.

Blowing up my photo, looks like the lock is marked "Alexander" something. Possibly Alexander Gun Mfg. Kinda worn there.

Last edited by Genelang; 04/28/18 02:58 PM.
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It is true that many of these little guns were sold which were chambered for the .44XL or .44-40 shot cartridge. It is equally true the actual .410 shotshell in 2" length was available in England & on the Continent during this same era.

I believe it is a mistake to assume the .410 was developed from the .44XL shotshell. By doing a search on the .410 several years back I found a very interesting site on the .410 which proved this beyond doubt with all being well documented.

I once had the pleasure of seeing a little German made .22 long/2" .410 combo gun which weighed as I recall about 3½ lbs. This was some years back & I also seem to recall its proof marks predated 1912.


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I have a similar gun over here in the UK, im restocking it and need to make new tumblers and fit some new hammers as the lock work is.. pretty shoddy. That being said despite its failings as any sort of fine gun it shoots very well, 2 inch chambered and .410 ( and marked as such if memory serves ) i have loaded some little square loads for it in black powder just based on what i could fit in the cartridge and crimp and have shot a hand full of rabbits with it, doubt its up to much beyond 20 yards but the pattern is pretty reasonable at that sort of range.

2 inch .410 is still commercially available in nitro here though I am thinking of lengthening and a reproof.

Last edited by Demonwolf444; 04/30/18 10:55 AM.
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The following is from"Wikipedia" so take it for what its worth. This does as I recall though reflect info from the site I mentioned finding some time back. I have no idea now as to how I accessed it, but it did appear to be well documented & that the True .410 bore preceded the .44Xl etc.

Origin
Lancaster's pattern centerfire and pinfire .410 shot cartridges first appeared in Eley Brothers Ltd. flysheets in 1857. By 1874, Eleys were advertising modern centerfire .410 cartridges.[1] It appears to have become popular around 1900, although it was recommended as "suited to the requirements of naturalists, and for such weapons as walking-stick guns", presumably for self-defense, in 1892 by W. W. Greener.[2] The first ammunition was 2.0 inches (50.8 mm) long, compared with the modern 2.5 and 3.0-inch (76 mm) sizes.


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I am sure it's not a fine guy, just a working gun. It's well built without a bit of fanciness or engraving. He was told it was a .410, but it could be for the .44-40 shot. Checkering isn't fine at all.

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A chamber cast would determine if it is chambered for the .44XL or the .410. Also does it carry proof marks. Bore on a .410 is 10.4mm, while that of the .44XL would be around 10.8-10.9mm. "IF" marked as a gauge by the proof house a .410 (On Size) would be a 67.49 gauge.


Miller/TN
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