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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
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As I stated in my original post here are my notes from the quick look I had of the Holland & Holland:
--Gun is out of proof as I see no evidence of a "R" re-proof stamp on the action flats placed there by the relevant proof house after the re-color case hardening.
--The barrels are dove tail barrels not chopper lump barrels as described.
--The replacement barrels were proofed between the years 1954 and 1989, not 1992 as described.
--Only serial number I can see is on the fore-end iron, which raises considerable concern to me as even the trigger guard hand piece is not engraved with the serial number as per standards of English guns.
--Need to ask the seller for photos that show the serial number on the barrels as well as the barrel maker and barrel lump machinist stamps along with barrel bore and wall thickness. Would not expect any reply to request.
--A prudent call to H&H about the origin of this gun and its replacement barrels before anyone should bid.
--Holland & Holland did not have a factory in 1885-86 and so this gun was not made there as per description.
--Barrel blacking and polishing is a third rate job.
--Holland & Holland did not have this gun re-color case hardened, it is not English work and further all the screws would have re-engraved or replaced. When I lived and worked in England nearly 20 years ago, I learned from Malcolm Cruxton of Price Street Birmingham that the English gun trade was very opposed to re-case hardening guns and that no one in the trade would ever even consider re-case hardening a double rifle due to the potential dangers of a future cracked action.
--The gun is a 2nd or 3rd quality Birmingham built hammergun, not of the quality as described.
--Is the description of the gun trumponian hyperbole to try to overcome lack of knowledge.
--The labels of this gun's case as well as the gun case of the Purdey that is for sale by the same seller says it all to me: "tarted up"--- let the buyer beware.
In the past I have seen a complete 20 bore SLE "Holland & Holland" gun that was built as a complete counterfeit fake that fooled a person who had been in the gun business for a long time. Although he finally determined it was a fake himself--too late.
Last edited by bushveld; 11/01/18 06:10 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,091 Likes: 192 |
I once appraised a genuine FAKE Purdey for a Virginia dealer. I was hoping to be offered the gun at a reduced price because it really was a great gun. I was not offered the gun and I assumed my appraisal was entered in the round file. I appraised a very high grade smallbore Parker for the same dealer that was a built up gun with ruined, severely pitted and overbored non original barrels. The gun is now happily in the hands of a collector who should know better. The collector is a friend and I am silent on the subject of this gun.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Should it not be Henry Holland?
Mike Proctor
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I once went in a dealers shop who knew I liked doubles. He spotted me coming in & said I've got one you need to look at. He had a boxlock marked Holland Holland. I told him there should be an And between the two Hollands, so I didn't believe it was original, besides being a boxlock. He said well they built some lower grade boxlocks, this wasn't a Best, but was still H&H. I then took it apart & it was covered with Belgian proof marks, so told him I'd pass. He would never admit it was not a genuine H&H.
I kinda felt sure he knew it but didn't think I would & thought he'd put one over on me.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 602
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2007
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Good thread. Most educational I can look at that gun and know it doesn't look right; I can identify some of the reasons why, but others have offered far more explicit detail about what's actually wrong - and there's a lot.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,710 Likes: 730 |
Most of the guys here would smell something funny with that one. Not my area of interest, but, it looked to be heavily refinished, with a heavy hand. Sparkly, and not in a good way, as well.
Best, Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313 Likes: 378 |
In photos 29 and 31, take a look at where the wider part of the top tang meets the narrower part. You don't need a precision instrument to see that the rear end of the wider part doesn't come close to being the same on the left and the right. Even the scroll in the engraving on the right side is more crowded to account for the difference. A Crescent built on a bad day has more symmetry.
With 7 days to go, and the price already up to $2525.00, it will be interesting to see the final hammer price on this one. The refund policy doesn't provide much hope of recourse for the lucky buyer.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
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Huey case is worth way more than the gun!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,960 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,960 Likes: 89 |
The seller often has some attractive guns but Lord help a buyer who thinks he has (1) an accurate description or, (2) the right of return and refund. See my post on page 1.
When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 369 Likes: 2 |
That gun looks amazing like the one that was in the latest Poulin's auction, and went for over $5,000. Poulins emailed me that the consignor was the one who had it rebarreled by H&H in the 80's. I was questioning the case colors too, strikes me as very gaudy for a true H&H. I spoke with the manager of the NY H&H showroom a couple years ago about rebarreling, he said it would be close to $30,000 for a new set of barrels. Odd that if the consignor had plunked down that kind of money (it would have been cheaper in the 80's, but then add in the rest of the refinish), why would he let it sell for $5,000?? Strikes me as more likely a cheaply done refinish, and had the barrel makers engrave the proper address on the rib. The engraving is less than on my similar vintage ones, and others that I've seen. So very "tarted up"
Of interest too, the Lang he is selling (789511707) appears exactly like the one from Poulins as well. Looks like C.A. gets some of their stock from there... with a tremendous amount of added hyperbole added to the description
Last edited by claycrusher1900; 11/02/18 11:17 AM.
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