doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How can authenticity of Win Mdl 21 be established?

Was that, perhaps, the late Don Criswell, of Yorba Linda CA?? I used to get his fine catalogues, before the Internet, and I know he specialized in Model 21's. My M21 has a sn of 159XX- I know Dad bought it used in Sept 1948- and used it each Fall until 1979, then passed it on to me in July 1980. I went to Schwing pocket book on Winchesters, page 135- Ned notes this: "Serial numbers for Model 21's are NOT indicative of when the gun was built. Therefore, no serial number list is given"--Strange, as he lists M12 and M97 sns.

Let me check on that- my Jack O'Connor book on Shotguns might clear that up, as Jack was a booster for the M21 shotguns- "back in the day"!

From what I gathered in his books Jack was a booster of anything he got for free....you know deep down he preferred the 7x57 over the .270.

Hey Joseph- I didn't realize there was a "Cult" for the M21- I surmise there is not a M21 Collectors Assn. extant, as the Parker, Fox and L.C. Smith lads enjoy. The only reason I own and shoot one is my late father giving me his. I would most likely NOT pay the going freight to own one today, even a plain Jane field grade 12 such as I am fortunate to possess.

If I wanted a good solid boxlock double gun, with a reliable SST and ejectors, I'd look for a later series Ithaca NID (sans the "snail ears" cocking pins"--and end up possibly money ahead--RWTF

The reason you can't date a model 21 by the serial number is due to Winchester forging / machining a bunch of frames with serial numbers stamped on them in advance of anticipated sales. The sales of 21's were fairly slow and it took years to use the pre-made frames. When an order for a 21 would come in, the workman would just grab a frame and start the production of the gun without concern for continuity in serialization. The only way I know of to date a Model 21 is through the records at the Cody museum.

You're not wrong, re 21s.

Maybe yes, maybe no- I went to my signed copy of Steve Bodio's book "Good Guns Again"--1994-Wilderness Adventure Press: ISBN no.: 1-885106-o6-8.. pages 42 & 43--In his discussion of this model, Steve wrote: The 16 is exceptionally well-balanced, and 3-inch 20's on the same frames-- etc.. Not 100% proof, but possibly enough for a discussion over "sundowners" perhaps. As I do not own, nor plan to purchase a M21 in either 16 pr 20 gauge, it is a moot point.

One reason I like Bodio's book is that in this same chapter he goes on to praise my favorite, my "go-to" shotgun- the "Perfect Repeater" On page 44, he even quoted Mr. Geoffrey Boothroyd, a noted British gun writer for "Shooting Times & Country" magazine-

"The Winchester Model 12, for example, cannot be faulted in its styling, whereas the much vaunted Winchester Model 21 double is, in my eyes-- truly ugly--

I have to look for my O'Connor book, also my copy of Gene Hill's "Shotgunner's Notebook" and see what they may have said about the M21's and various frames. Somewhere I recall reading that the M21 had 2 frames at first- 1 for the 12, 1 for the 16 and 20- they later increased that to 4, adding one for the 12 with a Ventilated rib, and one for the 16 and 20 with that same optional feature-- My Dad's old 12 field grade has 3" chambers, as marked on the barrel breech, but is NOT a DUCK model- and the frame mikes out the same as a friend's 12 M21 skeet grade- FWIW- both are guns are pre-Custom shop era, with the reinforcing bosses on the receiver sides--RWTF

Differences between 12, 16, 20 ga frames are subtle. Mostly in pin hole distances. Schwing, pp 51-53.

....And Schwing actually states there are 6 frames, a frame each for 12, 16 and 20 gauges, and then a separate frame for each of those gauges with a ventilated rib, totaling 6 frames in all.

6 frames is enough to cause a cult.