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#554719 09/11/19 11:37 PM
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Hello all.
First time poster as I ran across a beautiful Shotgun today and wanted to try to get some information on it before I decide whether to buy it. I know nothing about shotguns but have a reasonable Lee Enfield collection.

Overall condition is pretty good, bore is pristine and metal finish about 70%, lots of engraving but no birds or spectacular images. Just lots of swirly type stuff. Ssimilar to that I see on Lee Speed hunting rifles.

Serial numbers are matching inside and out - "53761"

It has an oval castle and flag stamped inside on the bottom of the Stock where the barrels fit and "WC scott and sons - Makers"Plus other proof marks. it has "patent gas check" stamped inside it and what look like 'O'rings around the firing pins. This is weird to me

Barrel are stamped underneath : .736 and .737 and there is Diamond with a 12 & C inside it (I presume indicating Caliber as 12 bore) a diamond indicating the gauge.

It has 2 little windows which apparently showed when it is cocked (they are black when snap caps are chambered).

Tang safety identical to Lee Speed style that I have.

Questions :
#1 - From the interweb it appears that this was made in 1897 given the serial number. have I misread this or is this really possible?? (good if so as it means cash and carry as opposed to DROS).
#2 - How do I find out which W & C Scott specific model it is??
#2 - Not a Damascus barrel but I cannot find any nitro proved stamps anywhere so I must assume good for black powder - what modern shells COULD I use in it.

Getting pictures and will post when I do

Last edited by Eighteenninety; 09/11/19 11:41 PM.
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I would date the gun at 1894 - the 1897 would correspond to records after Webley became part of the operation. the Patent Gas Check (patent 617 of 1882) is what you are seeing as 'O' rings around the pins and the windows are Scott's Crystal Cocking indicators (patent 3223 of 1875).
The gun has obviously been reproofed in some way after 1955, the decimal 736/737 etc only came in to use after that year. You need to post good close ups of all the proof marks to get a clear indication of what work was done. Possibly the gun was reproofed for B.P.only

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Will get pictures today and post - appreciate the information so far. May I ask where the 1894 date information was gathered please?

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I am referencing Nigel Brown's British Gunmakers book. It looks like W & C Scott and P Webley joined forces in 1897, becoming Webley & Scott.There was some duplication of Serial Number, i.e. Webley & Scott guns started at 52000 in 1897 but W & C Scott guns had 52000 serial # in 1894. That is not a good explanation I know, hopefully someone will come along and explain it a bit better.

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That's good enough for me.
Sadly I cannot post pictures as I have no web presence and am unable to attach pictures store don my PC. I'll have to do my best to describe.

The word "Choke" is stamped towards the front of the flat bit under the barrels (By the way both barrels are 'Improved' choke according to the gauge the guy use).

Under each barrel: just above the.737 and .736 there is a number "5"and under it a W which has a 'J' hanging off the right side. below each is a more heavily stamped "12".

Also the flat bit under the barrel there are four what look like crossed pickaxes. Two of them (near the .736/.737) have a "V" stamp only in the bottom quadrant opposite the pickaxe heads.

The other two, nearer the muzzle, have a stamp in three of the quadrants what looks like a square, a triangle opposite the pickaxe heads and a crescent on the right.

On the flat bit of metal attached to the buttstock. wher eteh serial number is (53761). there are two more of these cross stamps BUT only oine of each is a pickaxe, the other does not have the axe head and actually looks more like a spear with a dot above it. in between the axehead and spear there appears to be a crown and opposite it looks like a "V".

In addition to the Sserial, castle and flag and "W&C.SCOTT&SON MAKERS" there is a rounded end rectangle and inside is stamped the following "PAT No.-10879-86 and partially over this is stamped "1897"

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Now the bad news. Got to see it in person. The stock has been cut and a recoil pad added sometime since importing the USA in 1982. Has Whitworth barrels which are consecutively serialed and generally is rather nice. I imagine that the buttstock butchery will cut the value significantly though.

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Shame about the photos but thats not too serious. Re the stock, if it still retains reasonable and usable length that again is not too serious. The Whitworth barrels is good !. As to proof marks, you will have two lots, the originals from the 1890's and then the reproof marks from 'post' 1955. Some or even all of the original marks may have been lost. To work out what you have look here for a start : http://www.hallowellco.com/british_proof%20marks%20-%20syntax%20by%20date.htm. See also where it refers to download PDF file - its all in there.
Just a note on terminology, the metal attached to the buttstock is called the action (in UK anyway) and the flat area where the proof stamp is shown is called the action flats. Likewise the flat area below the barrels is called the barrel flats. Different terminology is used in the U.S.


Last edited by 300846; 09/13/19 10:19 AM.
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Nowhere on the gun (especially on the barrels/rib) is a name, something like “Excellentia”, “Monte Carlo”, “Premier” etc? 97’ would be pretty late in the game for a Scott & Baker patent action (pat# 761 of 1878). I imagine it has standard shaped lock plates as opposed to dip edged type seen on the S&B patent guns. Still back action though. The Whitworth barrels would put it in the higher quality range, they weren’t cheap.
I wouldn’t necessarily dog the gun because the stock was cut and a pad added, unless it’s lop is now something ridiculous like 13”.

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Looking at the link for the Birmingham proofs - many of those visible are in this document but I don't know what they mean exactly. What proofs Would confirm it as having been Nitro proofed? What does the .736/.737 indicate?

Side note - the store also has a greener and a parker SxS -they came from an estate sale. I will be checking them out today also smile

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The 0.736 & 0.737 are the bore diameters in inches at time of last proof.
11 gauge = 0.710" & 10 gauge is 0.775". I do not recall offhand if there were one or two steps between 11 &10. Dependant upon that these bore sizes at the time of original proof would have been marked as either 13 or 13/1.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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