doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Flues 16 Gauge bore/chamber dim ?'s

I acquired a 16 Ga Ithaca Flues serial # 356154 with ejectors and 30" barrels. I think this puts it at 1921/22 era.

Using my baker type bore gauge, both bores measure out a consistent .652 with both chokes tapering down to .635.

Chamber measures 2 3/4 both sides.

Thoughts on originality?

"Nominal" 16 gauge size is .662". Just as a wild guess I seriously doubt someone Shrunk these bores by 0.010", so likely original. Chokes would be 0.017" so also could easily be original. Offhand I do not recall if Ithaca normally used a conical/parallel or a taper choke. Perhaps someone will chime in on that & you can check the choke configuration on that basis.

"Standard" chamber length for the 16 at the time this gun was built would have been 2 9/16". A Winchester catalog from the early 1900s showed shells avai8lable for the 16 in lengths of; 2�", 2 9/16", 2 5/8", 2 3/4", 2 7/8" & 3". Some of these lengths were dropped during WWI I believe, but likely the 2 3/4" remained available, so Ithaca would likely have made a gun in this length on special order. It may or may not be original. "IF" it has a long forcing cone that is not apt to be original.

I have a pre-1915 Lefever H grade with 2 3/4" chambers, no indication they are not original. According to L C Smith Plans & Specifications, their early 16 gauge guns had bores of 0.650". All other gauges were listed with nominal bores, I have no idea why they chose to bore 16 gauge tubes undersize.

My every experience with Ithaca chokes from about 1920 & forward is that they have little to no parallel. I never thought about it before, but that would seem to be a bit trickier than cutting a cone and then finishing it off with the proper diameter reamer.

Have you looked for choke numbers on the barrels ( 0-4 = CYL- FULL)? I has seen several 30in 16s with 2 3/4in chambers. Makes me wonder if they were made that way as waterfowl guns.

Several US makers used the taper choke system. Offhand I don't recall for certain which ones did & which didn't. The one who did that I am most familiar with was Lefever. OF you come across a Lefever with a parallel section at the muzzle then you can lay Big Odds that it has been opened.

Looking at it strictly from a machinist's viewpoint I do not see it as being any trickier to finish the taper choke than the conical/parallel.

16-Gauge History lesson --

From the late 1890s until after WW-I, the heaviest 16-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered were 2 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 22 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 ounce of shot. Those loads could be had in the "standard" 2 9/16 inch case or any of the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch cases. In late 1922 or early 1923, Western Cartridge Co. added the 16-gauge to their progressive burning powder, high velocity loads called Super-X, but unlike the 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge and 1 ounce 20-gauge Super-X loads which were put up in Western's 2 3/4 inch FIELD shells, the 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load was put up in their 2 9/16 inch FIELD shell. When the Lubaloy shot Super-X loads were introduced in July 1929, they were put up in Western's high brass RECORD shell, but the 16-gauge still in a 2 9/16 inch length case.

The 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell really began to get some traction when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge in 1931, chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. While Remington's regular Nitro Express 16-gauge progressive burning powder load was put up in a 2 9/16 inch hull with a load of 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot, for their new 16-gauge autoloaders they introduced the slightly faster Auto-Express with a 3 1/4 drams equiv. charge pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot --





I'm thin on Winchester ammo catalogues, but for sure by 1934, they were offering a similar 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge load.

The 2 3/4 inch Magnum shells with 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge first appear in the December 15, 1954, Western Cartridge Co. catalogues.

Western Cartridge Co. added a 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge to their Super-X offerings for 1938. From 1938 through 1942 they called this 16-gauge 2 3/4 inch Super-X shell "Magnum", even though it was still a 1 1/8 ounce payload. By Western Cartridge Co.'s March 7, 1946, catalogue the term "Magnum" was gone from this 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell. In Western's January 2, 1947, catalogue, the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell was gone from both the chilled shot and the Lubaloy offerings, and their only 2 9/16 inch shells being offered were Xpert. This may have been an oversight, as the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell with chilled shot is back in Western Cartridge Co.'s April 8, 1948, catalogue and price list, and the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X loads remained until their last appearance on Western Cartridge Co.'s January 2, 1962, catalogue and price lists, where it is "available until stocks depleted." By Western Cartridge Co.�s January 2, 1963, catalogue and price lists the new Mark 5 was introduced and all the 16-gauge Super-X offerings are 2 3/4 inch. By the January 2, 1964, Western Cartridge Co. catalogue and price list the 16-gauge 2 9/16 inch Xpert shell is gone as well.

Generally speaking Ithaca Gun Co. catalogs state that their 16-gauge guns were chambered for the 2 9/16 inch shell through 1933. From 1934 onwards 2 3/4 inch shells. There is an exception. The last Flues era catalog in 1925 states 12- and 16-gauge guns are chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. My gut feeling is that was supposed to be 12- and 20-gauge guns.
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Both barrels marked 4 (full) and both chokes are full taper with no flats. I see no reason to think this is not factory correct.

Thanks for all the input. I am curious to get to the pattern board.

For what it is worth, my 16ga Flues (#363xxx, circa 1923) also has 2 3/4" chambers. I bought it about 15 years ago and I strongly suspect someone had lengthened the chambers before I got it. As others have said, 2 9/16" was pretty much standard for 16ga guns when it was made.

Some years back I copied this into a spreadsheet from a Shooting Times Mag in answer to a reader's question. Unfortunately, I do not know how, or even if it can be done, to make a spreadsheet line up properly here...It is though I believe fairly well readable. If anyone has other lengths that should be added please post them & I will add them to my spreadsheet. I am only interested in those from US makers. Interestingly while the most popular gauge, 12, had the most lengths available at 7 the 10 & 16 gauges both were only one short with 6 lengths.

Gauges & Shell Lengths From Early 1900s WRA Co Catalog

Gauge Lgth 1 Lgth 2 Lgth 3 Lgth 4 Lgth 5 Lgth 6 Lgth 7

4 = 4"

8 = 3 - 3 1/4" - 3 1/2" - 4"

10 = 2 5/8" - 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" - 3" - 3 1/8" - 3 1/4"

12 = 2 1/2" - 2 5/8" - 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" - 3" 3 1/8" 3 1/4"

14 = 2 9/16"

16 = 2 1/2" - 2 9/16" - 2 5/8" - 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" - 3"

20 = 2 1/2" - 2 5/8" - 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" - 3"

24 = 2 1/2"

28 = 2 1/2" - 2 7/8"

32 = 2 1/2"

.410 Cal = 2"

Later Lengths

10 = 3 1/2" Mag

12 = 3" Mag, - 3 1/2" Mag

20 = 3" Mag

28 = 2 3/4"

.410 Cal = 2 1/2" - 3"

3" 20-gauge should be in the upper part of the chart. Winchester seems to be the only one of our companies to offer 2 5/8 inch 16- and 20-gauge NPEs. I've not found that length in Western, Peters or UMC/Rem-UMC paper.