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Forums10
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Joined: Dec 2007
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,174 |
I was having a conversation the other day with my brother who owns a cabinet company. He was talking about recent advances in CNC machining regarding wood working. It got me thinking about their application in stock making. I showed him a picture of Holland & Holland stock including the inletting for the lock work and he wondered why these stocks could not be done with CNC machining to the same quality as by hand. Any insight on how much CNC is used in modern production for stocks? Are there limitations to what the current machines can do? Or is it just too expensive to buy the right machines for the job? Seems like it could cut down on costs considerably if you had enough volume to make up for the purchase of the machines.
Last edited by Adam Stinson; 12/31/19 12:00 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 423 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 423 Likes: 9 |
Hi Adam ,I do know that a gunsmith friend of mine has dabbled with some success running out rifle stocks on CNC.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,009 Likes: 22
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,009 Likes: 22 |
I'm sure that firms like Holland and Purdey use CNC equipment for metal parts, and I think they've had Hoenig stock duplicators for years. The varying dimensions of stocks and the relatively small numbers of them might mean that CNC tools wouldn't be a help. Just my speculation.
Bill Ferguson
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,980 Likes: 397
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,980 Likes: 397 |
I use my CNC mill for some stock work. I have done the inletting on several fore arms this way and then shaped the remainder from a block.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 748 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 748 Likes: 15 |
Adam, I think your question is a good one and I'm only guessing that large shops such as Beretta, for example, do use CNC equipment for stock production. The advantage being that once you have a program set up you can reproduce for a larger run. That said I have two very good friends that have CNC equipment. One uses for producing very complex barrel contours complete with full length integral matted rib and the other to produce very high quality rifle actions.
I can only guess again that shops such as H&H might use CNC but are certainly use high quality pantographs such as Hoenig for single use. As I said, I'm only guessing.
Doug Mann
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1128
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1128 |
You can go to Perazzi, in person, and be measured for a new stock, choose your blank, have it "CNCed", completed by hand, and fire the gun for confirmation of fit in one day's visit. This shows part of the process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j9NzAp46wU&list=TLPQMzExMjIwMTniOS3CtHvoww&index=1 Best, SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 775 Likes: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 775 Likes: 35 |
Adam, I had a couple of sidelock stocks copied by pantograph and it was anything but easy to then make the finished stocks fit the action as one might have hoped. There was considerable work needed by a experienced stocker to bring the two together. I used three different people who were time-served stockers at the top of their game and they were all spitting bullets by the time they had the job done. The problem seems to be mainly that the pantograph works too fast for the wood to stabilise in the process so that it moves and distorts as you work. In some areas they had to let in fillets of wood to correct for the distortion of the wood after the machining. A nightmare! The guy who did my copying in the USA finally stopped doing shotguns because of this problem and he would leave the job partially inlet for days at a time in an attempt to stabilise the stock as he worked. Of course, inletting a CNC made, draw bolt, triggerplate O/U is a very different job from a traditionally hand-made, breech bolt, sidelock S/S which is why Perazzi et al can easily CNC a stock to fit but Purdey et al only use a pantograph for the most basic roughing out of replacement stock. Rifle stocks lend themselves to the process much more than shotguns. The biggest problem with CNC is you would need a perfect 3D scan of the inletting WITH extra wood left behind in all the key places for the final finishing. And every gun is different so a fresh scan would be required with all the additional tweaks....!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,980 Likes: 397
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,980 Likes: 397 |
There is a whole lot of art involved in running a pantograph machine and a big learning curve involved. Personally I find that if I build the pattern, run it through the pantograph myself and then inlet it the process becomes more manageable. Here is a Stephen Grant sidelock I built the pattern to the client's dimensions, turned it then fit it. Fore end inletting cut to .010" under final fit done by hand.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 518 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 518 Likes: 4 |
I cannot imagine any modern manufacturer not having a bank of CNC machines doing inletting and exterior shaping. Why would you do it any other way, unless you can't afford or are unable to program the machinery? Certainly, there are the boutique makers whose reputation permits them to cling hidebound to hand shaping of wood and metal, but at that point you are talking art, its very high cost, and pride of ownership, without any practical gain in function.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,053 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,053 Likes: 8 |
Several years ago I stumbled on a video of a stock being made by a CNC machine. It was an incredible machine, multiple axes, and it inleted a side-lock stock in great detail. The machine changed cutters several times, all automatically. IIRC, it was an Italian machine but I can't remember the name of the company nor have I been able to find it again.
They stated that they could duplicate any stock, but when I contacted them about doing a stock for me, the answer was that the cost of writing the software for a specific stock would be too expensive.
Anyone out there remember that video?
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