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Keith ,
I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland ,their seems to be no goal to eliminate all guns from the country. All firearms here are licensed and itemised on those licenses and have been for some time now including air guns I donít see any evidence of a move to restrict ownership of target weapons , shotguns or stalking rifles or moves to confiscate them I am fond of my rifles and shotguns having owned some 50 years now and have had great fun with them I donít see any danger of the government depriving me of their use in my life time.
When terrorist attackers have to resort to using knives in their attacks you can see the benefit of not having semi auto centre fires available to the general public.
I agree that gun ownership and deaths due to gun violence do not correlate with rate of ownership and that the cause is most likely cultural but I think that the difficulty in obtaining firearms and ammunition in this country has perhaps prevented a few ďmentally ill nuts ďfrom wreaking havoc here in Scotland.
Iím glad you are among the fortunate who have no need to worry about gun crime but I am well enough informed to know that in many areas of the US gun violence and mass shootings are a blight on society a situation we have thankfully been able to avoid here in Scotland since the Dunblane massacre in 1996 and the resultant restrictions.



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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland ,their seems to be no goal to eliminate all guns....

I'm glad your future is secure in Scotland. Possibly, you might see that you are a meaningful anti gun activist, and please don't take it the wrong way. It seems like you throw any shooter that doesn't like the types of arms that you do into the okay to eliminate category? Is it possible that the situation that you are comfortable with, hunt deer and shoot ducks, is some how responsible for not allowing access for the new shooter or less fortunate to take up the sport? You mentioned recent licensing of air rifles, and that's not a trend that will ensure more anti firearm activities are to come?

On a side note, myself and my family are regularly in parts of the country where a high percentage of people carry concealed arms and nearly all vehicles have a loaded gun of some type in it. I honestly believe that it is a fallacy to think that everyone 'needs' a gun because of some fear of gun violence. Here, it is a right, and all it then becomes is a choice whether to exercise that right or not. No one expresses fear in these situations, and the majority of folks know the situation is extremely safe, your 'nut jobs' are more than smart enough to seek locales that a kitchen knife would strike fear in the general population.

There are many parts of the US that have the highest firearm restrictions, and yet the absolute worst factual and feeling of safety. No go zones, so to speak. The thing that makes you refer to criminal use of a firearm, in the US as a 'blight', is most definitely a talking point created by a political agenda.

Again, please don't take it as bashing, it's just my opinion. I still think, if kids aren't interested, it's only because they haven't had the exposure. Maybe there aren't many opportunities to introduce new shooters because it is cost prohibitive? Make no mistake about it, making the sport unafforable an inch at a time is specifically an antigun activity, even if some piece paper says folks have the privilege of purchasing an air rifle license. Don't mind me, thanks for sharing your experiences.

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I see no anti gun activity here in Scotland.

I feel you only choose to "see no anti-activity", and seem to actually condone it.
The kilted tortoise is crawly along, never fear.


Dumb, but learning...
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Konor3inch, It is amusing that you don't see any evidence or intent to outlaw or confiscate the arms that you are still permitted to own. The anti-gunners took your handguns, and they took your semi-autos. In addition, they required the licensing or registration of all remaining guns... even including air rifles! Now you are here commenting on a voluntary lead shot ban that is anything but voluntary.

For some odd reason, I am thinking about that quote I posted earlier from George Mason, when he related how the governor of Colonial Pennsylvania advised British Parliament the best way to disarm the Colonists. And I am also thinking about the old saying about tossing a frog into a pot of boiling water. The frog reflexively jumps out, scalded but still alive. But if you put the frog in a pot of cold water and gradually turn up the heat, he will remain in the pot until he is boiled to death.

So tell us, if some mentally ill nut or some terrorist killed or injured a number of people using either a stalking rifle, or shotgun, or target gun... how long do you think it would be before the knee-jerk solution would be to simply eliminate another class of inanimate objects that have been slowly turned into little more than an anachronism? Thanks to your universal registration, they know right where to find them. And is your government really more concerned about a mass murder with an air rifle than they are about potential violence with a knife or a vehicle, or perhaps a nice arson fire such as the one that snuffed out 33 lives in Japan about 8 months ago?

Honestly, I can't remember the last time I heard of a mass shooting or a murder with an air rifle. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect that the real intent is to demonize all guns. It's supposed to be a nice day tomorrow. I may just go out in the back yard and shoot my recently acquired Smith & Wesson .22 revolver. Or I may decide to shoot one of a dozen or so other handguns... just because I can. How about you?


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
Keith ,

When terrorist attackers have to resort to using knives in their attacks you can see the benefit of not having semi auto centre fires available to the general public.





It would seem that you have missed an important point. The terrorists didnít go away when you eliminated your center fire auto guns. They simply changed their MO.
Iím reasonably well enough informed to know that crime, especially violent crime, has not gone down in the U.K. since the massacre in Dunblane. And, that a knife attack is by no means a rare or odd thing in London. Quite the contrary.

If you are content with the way things are, more power to you.

I have my own belief on the many ďGun FreeĒ zones that cropped up in this country over the last thirty years. I believe it was a deliberate, and well understood plan by those who championed it to unleash criminally ill individuals on those rendered completely defenseless by those who supported this legislation, in an attempt to invalidate and eliminate the second amendment to the US constitution. There were those who clearly understood that the mayhem and killing would be directed at the most vulnerable targets by the criminals who would know enough to pick a soft target, in order to take as many innocent lives along with them on their trip to hell.

They knew it, they understood it, and they did it. They are now, and always have been, aligned with the left of center political spectrum in this country.

They have a lot of blood on their hands.

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Ted

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As I recall pistol crime went up in the wake of Dunblane, in spite of a total pistol ban.
Maybe that's because the only ones who obeyed the law were the law abiding.
We have now a situation in NZ where appox 80% of the once legit semi autos have not been handed in, and will I suspect possibly turn up on the "grey market" at a later stage, in effect making society less safe that when they were owned by the once law abiding.
Yet even here I still get shooters telling me "its alright Jack I don't own semi autos so I'm all good, doesn't affect me!"
When in truth when their time comes and the antis want their stalking rifles and shotties they will scream of the injustice of it all. Very short sighted.
We have in power a coalition Govt comprising in part of the greens, who, after the Christchurch tragedy made it clear they wanted ALL guns banned, everything.
Luckily some sense prevailed but it made it crystal clear the dangers of a left leaning government.
All because some nutjob Australian decided to come to our shores and commit a heinous crime.

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In response to Keith writing that he didnít recall a lot of resistance in the past to anti gunners chipping away at gun ownership here in the UK I posted as
way of explanation that post Dunblane many handgunners had no interest in continuing with pistol target shooting and I was one of those.
The pressure for the ban didnít come from anti gunners with an agenda but from parents and relatives of the children that had been murdered ,see the Snowdrop campaign, and the general population in the hope that the banning of handguns would decrease the likelihood of another mass school shooting.Those sentiments were acted upon by the right wing conservative government of the time and finalised after the election by the newly elected Labour government. I sympathised with those sentiments and to date 14 years later there has not been any shootings on school premises.
The greatest majority of pistol shooters in Scotland were club target shooters whose weapons werenít kept for personal protection or in order to oppose a tyrannical government so the mindset in surrendering weapons was different to what you have in the US .
There were of course people who competed in long range shooting, practical pistol and police pistol competitions amongst others who had invested considerable amount of money time and effort in their hobby and were obviously angry that they were to lose their equipment and their hobby. Many reinvested what compensation they were given and took up pistol calibre lever action rifle shooting on the same ranges and a lot moved on to other rifle or shotgun disciplines. I have never spoken to anyone who lost their pistols who expressed the sentiment that the pistols loss would put them at the mercy of a tyrannical government.
As far as I am aware there is no organisation calling for the relaxation of the laws to permit hand gun ownership for general personal protection in Scotland.
We have a country which thankfully has limited access to firearms for personal protection and so the population has no need to arm themselves to level the playing field. Iím not aware of any fear of the government in Scotland it is working well for its people and I sleep easy at night.
Iím sorry if this outlook disturbs any on the double gun forum but it is a truthful account and serves to inform and is not intended to compare your country laws or people ,the post is not intended to antagonise but to indicate that opinions differ.
I donít consider myself anti gun ,and I didnít vote to ban hand guns though I am indifferent to their loss I gave mine up willingly because I had no need of them for protection and I had no fear that a tyrannical government was waiting on the sidelines to control the country.
I will post separately to address points raised in responding posts.

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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
....The pressure for the ban didnít come from anti gunners with an agenda but from parents and relatives of the children that had been murdered....

Thanks again for your thoughts, theyíre just different. Iíd keep in mind that someone who had a political agenda and the ability to create law or regulations were the ones responsible for parading victims in front of you. My opinion is that, I like a story where you decided to hang up the handguns not someone else creating by a sense of guilt in you. I canít see giving up a kitchen knife, and convincing myself itís voluntary, just because someone else decided to use it in a criminal way. I think you folks should work on making criminals guilty, instead of working to make law abiding folks feel guilty.

You gave up too easily on your pistols, would you be able to share what restrictions you faced prior to the shooting. Are you safer now than when you were a pistol target shooter?

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CraigD I had no hand in the loss of hand guns in Scotland. . I wasnít interested in continuing with punching holes in paper with a hand gun when it distressed those affected by the Dunblane massacre, on a personal level I found more Walter Mitty characters in the world of pistol shooting and as an ex infantryman didnít enjoy their company.
I introduced many people to pistol shooting when I was a student at open range days, ran a college clay pigeon club for three years and have helped people to take up wildfowling, game shooting ,stalking and clay shooting using my equipment and cartridges
I agree with you whole heartedly that restricting the opportunities for people to join the ranks of shooters is unfair. For an airgun licence with no possession of a firearms or shotgun certificate the price is £70 if you are to buy a cabinet then the cost will ensure that some will never aspire to enjoy shooting as a hobby as they will not get that first opportunity that would lead on to a shooting life.
If dressed to fit in there is probably no area in Scotland I could not walk in, in Scotland there is no no go zones and there is nowhere I could go where there would be any likelihood of me being shot..
As regards safety about the same, violence is mostly city street fights involving young men invariably drunk . Random violence exists but it is invariably about being in the wrong place at the wrong time Shooting incidents are low but fluctuate as a result of feuding drug dealers or organised crime gangs.
To be issued a firearms certificate usually involved a six month probationary period at a target club then applying for your licence few were rejected then after that if you had access to compete or shoot with any type of firearm then you could apply to have authorisation to obtain that calibre of weapon . Many people had an array of calibres to be possessed covering most areas of target shooting. In contrast for shooting out with a range you need to state a valid reason for each rifle and have permission to use that rifle for the species concerned on private ground so a lot more restrictive. As a consequence of these restrictions I am unable to pass on my rifles to my son unless he was to comply with those same conditions. The system for shotguns is more relaxed by standards here and usually certificates are issued should you express an interest in taking up clay pigeon shooting and have a referee who can vouch for your good character. All in all itís restrictive and can mean you canít fully enjoy a variety of shooting experiences casually but need to comply with the conditions surrounding gun ownership.

Last edited by Konor3inch; 03/04/20 03:32 PM. Reason: Adding info
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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch

I donít consider myself anti gun ,and I didnít vote to ban hand guns though I am indifferent to their loss I gave mine up willingly because I had no need of them for protection and I had no fear that a tyrannical government was waiting on the sidelines to control the country.
I will post separately to address points raised in responding posts.


And therein lies the problem...

The tactic of divide and conquer works quite well when some gun owners are so ready and willing to give up someone else's guns. And virtually none of those FUDD gun owners here in the U.S. who are willing to give up Ted's handguns, or my semi-autos, or craigd's lead ammunition ever consider themselves to be anti-gun.

I do remember the two mass shootings that you referenced, and I absolutely recall the anti-gun politicians and anti-gun media using those tragedies to push for the resulting gun bans. It happens every time there is a mass shooting anywhere in the world, so it is disingenuous and misleading to defend the anti-gunners, and to make the false claim that they did not demand these bans.

Konor3inch, you say you gave up your handguns willingly, and I believe you for some reason. But if you hadn't been so willing, and you really enjoyed shooting and owning handguns, you would still have been compelled to give them up by the government that you say you do not fear. And when some mentally ill nutcase takes a shotgun or target rifle into a school or public place, and kills a number of people, the precedent is there for the same government that you do not fear to take those firearms from you as well.

You say you don't fear them or consider them to be tyrannical... but if you do not comply, you will be arrested and imprisoned, and they will confiscate and destroy your personal property anyway... whether you like it or not. It matters not that you have been a law abiding and well behaved citizen who served his country. You would be treated as a common criminal. That sounds quite tyrannical to me.

As you said earlier, the die has been cast. I am not antagonized. But I am sorry that you seem unable to comprehend what has been lost to you and your son, and very sorry that you see such a sad situation and actually consider it to be freedom and security.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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