doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1895 Reilly - Action patent? Proof Mark?

I've been asked for help on a UK Reilly 12 ga. SxS. It is SN 33508 which I've dated firmly to 1895. I don't have a picture yet of the barrel flats but will get one. I need some help:
-- There is a proof mark on the action flats that I don't recognize with "BNP". Any clue? These are steel barrels...don't know yet if they are replacements. But might this be a Belgian barrel proofed in UK?
-- And there is a Patent Action use mark "Pat 1968-78 No. 2" use number 1993. What might this be for?
Thanks for the help.

Maybe Thomas Perkes patent 1968 of 1878 which protected a rear lump cocked hammer gun, a rod cocked and a front lump cocked hammerless gun and an over the centre ejector.

Markus

Good observation....Reilly used other Perkes patents. Here's an article in Diggory's "Vintage Gun Journal" Feb 2020 which mentions this action....if Reilly were still using in in 1895, there must have been economic advantages for him in selling it:

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/other-avenues

"Some patents, like the Perkes back-action of 1878, reduced this �drag� on the falling barrels by cocking one lock with the fall of the barrel and the other upon closing. However, such actions were over-complicated and although variously used by Holland & Holland, Boss and Cogswell & Harrison, the idea fell into disuse."

BNP surmounted by a Crown is the mark of the Birmingham proof facility.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Why is the left dog & water-table peened? Or is it?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I would read those three punch marks as assembly markings.

O.M

Thanks for the expertise. Here's what I've sent to the gentleman. I'll await photos of the barrels and barrel flats - welcome corrections/additions:

-- The SN is 33508 which dates it to mid 1895 per my chart. The SN should be stamped on the fore-arm, on the tang behind the trigger and on the barrels unless they have been replaced.

-- Steel barrels - even at this late date most Reilly's used Damascus. Is there a Whitworth sheaf mark on the barrels, a symbol of quality in Reilly's?

-- There are two proof marks on the Action Table...one from London (original) and one from Birmingham (the BNP) from post 1954. The gun obviously was originally proofed in London (as all Serial Numbered Reilly's were) and in the mid 1950's reproofed in Birmingham. (I will attach below Diggory Hadoke's excellent proof-mark chart).

-- I would like to see a photo of the barrel flats please. This will tell the story of reproofing, etc. and if the original London Proofs are still visible, may help the dating chart.

-- The address on the rib should be "E.M Reilly & Co.," then either 16 New Oxford St., London (or just New Oxford St., London) or 277 Oxford St. (or just Oxford St.). Again if the barrels have been replaced or sleeved this might not be there.

-- The patent action mark ("Pat 1968-78 No 2) likely refers to the 1878 Perkes back-action patent which cocked one lock with the fall of the barrel and the other upon closing. Reilly seemed to like Perkes patents for some reason. Holland & Holland, Boss, Cogswell & Harrison used the action but it was regarded as complicated.

-- The patent use number is 2993, a rather large number. I am still trying to figure out how London patent use payments were handled in the 19th century. Each patent owner seems to have had his own system. This is interesting for a couple of reasons:
------ The patent use number (if records still exist) can verify the year the gun were made confirm the chart (which is already very solid).
------ And you'll find in the old shooting expert community, many people who believe Reilly did not make guns...claiming he was a retailer only. No one can say how this legend came to exist, except I think it grew out of 1922 after bankruptcy when the name was bought by a sporting goods dealer who put 20,000 guns on the market with that name. If I can find patent use records for some of the patents Reilly used on his guns, and if Reilly paid for the patent..it's evidence of a sort that he made the gun (which he of course did).

-- Reilly sales were falling in the mid-1890's which by 1898 led him to close 16 New Oxford St. and concentrate manufacturing at 277 Oxford St. where he had a 50 yard shooting gallery. EM had died in 1890. Who was running the company at this time is unknown. His eldest, then 28 possibly born out of wedlock but acknowledged died in 1895.

-- There seem to have been a lot of pairs sold by Reilly in the 1890's. I originally thought your gun might be in the serial number 33,000 range because of several other extant singleton "pairs" in my database which are very similar to yours and even hoped one of them might the number "2" to your gun. They aren't but something might turn up.

Hope this helps. I would like to see a picture of the barrel flats and rib. It's a beautiful gun. I've seen these sell for anywhere from $2,000 to $3,400 in the States. I can do some research on GBP prices at auctions for similar guns if you'd like...I think I have the data.