doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Murat Cizeron

First things:
-- PT - Proofed for PT (smokeless) - post 1900
-- CHOKE RECTIFIE - "regulated choke" but means nothing
-- J.BREUIL - Jean Breuil, Barrel maker in Saint-Etienne
-- 6.5 - Chambered in cm 6.5 - pre-1912
-- ACIER au CREUSET - "Crucible Steel" - means nothing - an advertisement
-- MEDAILLE D'OR - "Gold Medal" - won at the Tour Eiffel Exposition Universelle in Paris in 1889 - see above re the Murat family which ultimately became Murat-Cizeron.
-- EPR.SUPERIEUR - Superior "EPR" - Not able to determine what EPR means as yet. Will continue to look.

Barrel markings are unclear in the photo.
-- It will have one proof mark and "St. Etienne".
-- There should be a bore in mm.
-- The "B.A" might be associated with Breuil - I'll look further
-- There should be some sort of advertising slogans in front of the proof mark.

No picture of the side-plates but undoubted they are "Faux Platine" - made to resemble a side-lock.

There may be the name of the retailer engraved around the front of the trigger guard.

Barrel markings are hard to read but here's what I have - from rear.
left: BA, 17.0, St Etienne double proof marks then a G with an M over it.

Right: all same except 22.0, no BA here and serial #40**

There are no other markings on the barrels. The flats you can see in the picture.
The underside of the forearm has no markings but the primary screw is engraved and there are traces of case hardening.

Do you know names any of the Retailer's that are common to these guns that may be engraved somewhere on the gun?

Argo44, Possibly EPR.Superieur is epreuve superieur? That is, superior proof...

Best, Tim

Gene, do you suppose that the "art" could be "artisan"? The other possibility that struck me, given that the t isn't all that clear: Could it be "arq", as in "arquebusier"?

We're dealing with two Murat-Cizeron guns...the original posted by French Double and the one on Gunbroker posted by Greybeard.

1. On the original from French Double:
. . . . -- "EPR.Superieur" could certainly be "Epreuve superieur" and that's probably what it is. Usually with two proof marks, the advertisement will be on the barrel as "Double Epreuve."
. . . . -- I'm having a hard time understanding how the gun could be 17.0 (16 bore) on one barrel and 22.0 (8 bore?) on the other. Definitely need a photo. Any suggestions?
. . . . -- The "B.A." has nothing to do with Jean Breuil. Here is an example of a barrel stamp with "JB"...i.e. Jean Breuil. The "J.G." above it like the "B.A. on FD's gun must be the gun maker.

Earlier on - I think he had simple "J.B." with stars before the "J" and after the "B."
. . . .-- As for who retailed Murat-Cizeron guns....just about every little hardware in France and abroad who could take an order. The 1906 Gerest-Berthon which I gave to my daughter-in-law was retailed by a store in Sicily.
. . . .-- Finally note the screw on top of the key - classic Scott Spindle. There's no patent infringement on V.C. "Helical" patent here (Thanks Larry....finally got it straight).


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2. On Greybeard's gun from gunbroker...Larry's suggestion that the retailer in Compiegne might be Guinard "Arquebusier" is logical.



The problem is I cannot find an arquebusier in France named Guinard. Marie Arthur Guinard, of rue de la Opera, Paris, mentioned above, was a retailer who stocked mostly English guns and called himself an Armurier. Here's a gushing article about the firm...



Jules Guinard of Compiegne, was an industrialist who made auto parts, sewing machines and bicycles. Where there are bikes and sewing machines in France, there has to be guns. He was so devoted to gun sports that he named his bicycles "Le Cerf" (The Deer). So normally I'd suspect He is the Guinard who retailed this gun. Here's a short history of his beginning:



However, there's a problem. From that article Jules Guinard opened his factor in 1902 in Compiegne. The gun is proofed for PS around or just before 1900 one would think. So perhaps the rue de la Opera, Paris Guinard opened a store of some sort in Compiegne.

-- Note also that the key has a screw on it's top...not a V.C. clone.

French Double...here is the mark-up I sent to Daughter in law for her to understand the stamps on the 1906 Gerest-Berthon with barrels by Didier-Drevet that I gave her. Perhaps this might help - you start to understand the amounts of advertising that went into French gun stamps:



1. Didier Drevet, barrel maker (Canonier St Etienne) and his marks.

2. Grand Prize 1900 (for Paris Universelle exposition) (Gerest won a gold medal there and I think this is for Gerest not DD. DD won a prize at Liege in 1905 and there is allegedly a mark on the gun to this effect.

3-4. Once again the Proof mark for Saint Etienne for PT powder.

5. This is the length of the chamber in centimeters i.e. �7 cm� or 2 3/4�..normally marked 70mm in every other place in Europe but Saint Etienne at the time� Saint Etienne switched from using mm in 1889 to cm then back to mm in 1912. The fact that this gun is chambered for 2 3/4� is unusual. Most French guns of the era until after WWII were chambered for 6.5 or 65mm i.e. 2 1/2� shells. See �Double Express� on both barrel and butt plate.

6. 17.0 = diameter of the bore in mm which is equal to 16 gauge in America/UK. 18.4mm is 12 gauge. 15.6 is 20 gauge,

7. The crossed palms with �St Etienne� is the Saint Etienne proof house mark. This gun has two palm marks, meaning it�s been �double proofed� for more powerful powder charges than normal. The old butt plate which was replaced had �?????? Express� stamped on it.

8. �Didier Eureka Canon Plume�: trademark of Didier Drevet. He invented a barrel which did not have a lower rib and thus was a lot lighter. Canon (barrel) plume (feather) is the idea.

9. (white). 1906 . 11985: The date the barrel was made by Didier Drevet 1906 and DD�s barrel serial number. Saint Etienne guns are very hard to date. However, the fact that DD dated and serial numbered his barrels enabled me to sort of revolutionize the dating process�.

10. 7859: Gerest-Berthon serial number of the gun

11. �Canon du Surete Garantie� �Double Express�: Sort of an advertisement meaning �guaranteed good barrels.� The �double express� is interesting and unusual as mentioned above and is why it�s chambered for 7.0 cm length shells.

12 �Non pour la balle� (not for ball). This means that the barrels had �chokes� and could not fire a straight slug bullet the size of the bore.


Name of the retailer in Sicily.

You also might find this line interesting "Dating Early 20th Century French Shotguns":
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=1

And this is the French/English vocabulary we compiled a few years ago:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

Thanks for clarifying the 2 two different guns issue. I was wondering why the thread had gone to the other guns. I dug the old girl out just now and through the magic of glasses and additional magnification I can see the 2nd barrel is in fact a badly smudged 17. The majority of the labeling on the barrel tubes is very lightly stamped and difficult to interpret and just doesn't show up on photos. My gun also does not have many of the xtras that the example has. Basis the double proof markings that I have looked up I'm assuming it probably came from between July 30th 1897 and 1923.That's basis a Proof marks chart for French guns that I found elsewhere. As does the Crown over PT mark. I'm still wondering about that G with the markings through it. Can't find it anywhere and too small to photo. Maybe a supplemental mark? Whatever the case, she's been such a part of my life that she's priceless to me. After all, I have a 9 year old
Grandson and 3 year old Granddaughter to think about! (She'll probably end up with the 28 bore Martin Ugarteburu though)

FD....It's definitely after 1900 because of the "PT" powder proof mark. And it's definitely before 1912 because it's chambered "6.5" in cm. In 1912 Saint-Etienne changed back to mm for chamber markings...i.e. "65" (2 1/2") like the rest of Europe. So dated between 1900 and 1912. It's a very nice gun from a quality maker in France at the time. Make sure she shoots 2 1/2" low pressure shells - RST can supply you.