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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Not sure if I have already sent you this info................?

16b D/B Pinfire shotgun by Westley Richards Ser. No. 2956. Twist 30" barrels. U/Lever. Borderline engraved back action locks Figured walnut stock. Old repair to wrist, otherwise good condition. Weller & Dufty 30th Jan. 1973.

Her,s another W R :

Weller,s Catalogue description, " A scarce, high quality double barrelled 12 bore Pinfire shotgun Serial No. 10804 by WESTLEY RICHARDS, 170, NEW BOND STREET, LONDON. Bar in wood action, curved to the shape of the barrels, and extending to cover the hinge joint. (see "Game Guns & Rifles" by Akehurst plates 44 & 50 for a very similar hammer gun) The top of the action with Westley Richards Patent sliding breech catch which engages the dolls head of the rib extension. Wood bar locks, with graceful Dolphin hammers, nicely scroll engraved, the lockplates signed and scroll foliage engraved, engraved steel trigger guard,. Walnut stock, with chequered wrist and forend, horn forend tip and silver escutcheons, the forend shaped to fit the hemispherical surface of the hinge joint. Refinished, bores pitted. VGC. Barrels 30". WELLER & DUFTY 20/03/1973

14b Pinfire D/B Shotgun by Matthews of Kendal. U/Lever opener. No visible serial no. Twist 26" barrels. Scroll foliage engraved back action locks and and furniture. Some wear. Generally good.


MORE TO COME.................

Last edited by ivanhoe; 06/13/21 07:10 AM. Reason: Extra info
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Sidelock
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Thanks, Ivanhoe. Westley Richards No. 10804 is interesting in that it has the pull-lever, and from the serial number dates from 1865. WR patented his lateral lever in 1864, but was clearly still making the pull-lever action in 1865. Another example of this action on a 1865-dated gun is shown on page 6 of this thread (https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=576857&page=6)

Joseph Matthews of Kendal (1847-1869) is on my list, but I'd not seen any mention of pinfire guns by him.

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Sidelock
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Hi Steve, did you get the catalog pages I sent to you? Dave

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Sidelock
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Here are the latest findings by Ivanhoe, scanned from Southams auction catalogues. These add to the names and types already discussed in this thread, though unfortunately, the catalogue listings provide little information and the scanned images are not always clear. These are all squirrelled away in peoples' collections now.

Bond (possibly Edward and Philip Bond; or Henry Bond, Diss, Norfolk; or William Bond, Thetford, Norfolk) 12-bore, locks signed BOND; 29 ¾” barrels.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Stephen Grant of London 12-bore single; 30” two-stage part octagonal barrel; top flat inscribed “S. Grant 67A St James’s Street London.” Not surprisingly, this is very similar to the Boss & Co. single covered elsewhere in this thread, which was made under Grant's oversight. Grant left Boss & Co in 1867, and I've wondered if he still made pinfires, or went straight into centre-fire guns.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Joseph Smith of Birmingham, 27/28 Loveday St; 12-bore; bar-in-wood side-lever (showing J. Smith’s patent no. 3171 of 1863); 29 3/8” barrels. Unusual action, little seen. Looks like a Needham lever, but isn't.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Alfred Lancaster of London, 14-bore; 29” barrels; No. 3766; patent thumb-hole action; 27 South Audley Street address; converted to centre-fire, possibly by Lancaster.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

William Pountney of Birmingham, 12-bore; 29 ¼” barrels; No. 525; half pistol grip; plain metal.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

James Purdey & Sons, 12-bore; single-bite underlever; the 29th pinfire made by Purdey.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Richard Jeffery of Guildford, 12-bore; 30” barrels.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 06/19/21 04:09 PM. Reason: error
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Sidelock
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Here are a few more, courtesy of Ivanhoe:

Westley Richards, 16-bore; 26 ¼” barrels; rotary underlever; with percussion cartridge inserts; No. 9805; 170 Bond St address.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Westley Richards, 12-bore, lateral top lever; 170 Bond St. address.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Edwin Wilson of Horncastle, 12-bore; 29 ½” barrels; No. 385.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

E & G Higham of Liverpool, 12-bore; 30” barrels; No. 2465.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

John Young Potter of 52 High Street, King’s Lynn; 12-bore; 27 ¾” barrels; signed “J. POTTER HIGH St. LYNN NORFOLK; border engraved; stock with heel and toe plates; No. 176.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Hal Offline
Sidelock
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Would you tell us a bit more about those percussion cartridge inserts? Seems like they would require a very heavy head and leave little space for ignition of the powder.

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Sidelock
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Hal, I can’t say much from personal experience, as I don’t have one of those guns fitted with ‘movable chambers.’ On pages 11 and 12 of this thread are Beringer guns equipped to operate as pinfires or with cartridges/removable chambers and percussion caps. I’ve only seen photographs of metal cartridges with an external nipple that could fit in a pinfire gun (page 66 of Macdonald Hasting’s book, English Sporting Guns and Accessories, if you have it). Loading such a cartridge or ‘second breech’ would be like loading a primed hull by hand. I have used brass ‘everlast’ pinfire cases, and inserting a percussion cap and pin in one of these is probably more fiddly than using a case with an external nipple.

The type of chamber insert depicted in the Westley Richards above would seem to offer the choice between using a cap, loose powder and shot, and a pinfire cartridge. I can understand the reasoning for such a choice at the beginning of the pinfire era, as one would not be sure if pinfire cartridges would be available on, say, an extended hunting trip to distant lands. However, the pin holes in the barrels are much larger than with a typical pinfire and would not necessarily keep the pins perfectly upright, an immediate cause for a misfire. Again, however, without examining such a gun first-hand, or reading contemporary accounts of their use, I’m just speculating.

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Hal Offline
Sidelock
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Thanks. I assume these would have been made of steel and very expensive, although having the advantage of being reloaded almost indefinitely compared to any pinfire cartridge.

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Sidelock
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These percussion inserts go back pretty far! I have been acquiring all the Lefaucheux ads I can find and one of them mentions:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
PERFECTIONNEMENT.
FUSILS LEFAUCHEUX, 10, rue de la Bourse.
MM. les CHASSEURS sont prévenus que dorénavant les FUSILS LEFAUCHEUX pourraient, à défaut de cartouches, se charger à la baguette comme les fusils à piston, an mayen d’un CULOT DE NOUVELLE INVENTION que maison Lefaucheux délivrera gratis avec chaque arme sortant de ses magasins.
On trouve dans la MAISON LEFAUCHEUX un assortiment complet de toute espèce d’armes à feu à charger par derrière ou ordinaires à piston.

This advertisement is from the August 15, 1842 issue of the Journal Des Débats. Here Jubé (guy who owned Lefaucheux's company from December 17, 1835 until January 1, 1845 ) advertises an improvement. He mentions to hunters that they no longer need to worry about running out of pinfire cartridges as he will provide a new invention of a reusable cartridge that can be loaded with percussion caps free with every gun purchase.

The Westley Richards one however looks like it was never a pinfire and could never be a pinfire unless there were some additional kind of insert. I had a pistol that could take similar cartridges or an insert would screw in to allow a pin to be held in the giant square hole.
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

But guns were definitely made that only worked with these adapters. Even Eugene Lefaucheux made a revolver as such which I once owned:
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
The hammer itself is even a bit hollow and there is no way it would work with regular pinfire cartridges. He even advertised it as so (You can see the ad here: https://casimirlefaucheux.com/t/revolver-marked-lefaucheux-fils-next-to-come/176 )

And here's a little more history on other percussion adapter cartridges in this little article I wrote some years ago:
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Last edited by AaronN; 06/21/21 08:54 PM.

Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Thanks, AaronN, very useful information.

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