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Aug 5th, 2016
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big al1 #580236 09/19/20 05:24 PM
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The best to all of you who had good service from CSMC. That is the way it is supposed to be. Maybe you should be buying lottery tickets as well!

I really liked the CSMC concept of bespoke modern production of Fox & Winchester 21 guns as most of the original guns don't have stock dimensions that work well for me. Unfortunately my experience with CSMC as well at that of a close friend of mine was that they provide extremely poor customer service & we both have detailed our experiences on this and other forms several times in the past.

Both of us have positive past experiences with ordering bespoke guns & dealing with gunsmiths so I don't think our expectations of CSMC were unrealistic.

I was so disgusted by my former dealings with CSMC That when my 12 ga CSMC Model 21 became so loose & off face after only around 8000 rounds of low pressure 7/8 oz loads that it clattered when you shook it (and this was with the bolt adjustment screw all the way in) that i sent it to an independent gunsmith that posts on this forum to install a new joint pin & properly fit it to the hook rather than send it back to CSMC for repair under their lifetime warranty.

Something else may go wrong with it in the next 8000 rounds or so but I'm willing to bet that it won't be coming off face again because of a poorly fitted joint pin.

big al1 #580237 09/19/20 05:38 PM
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I got my hands on a Savage Fox A Grade that had made the rounds of several other outdoor writers as a field test gun. Frankly, I was impressed. As I said before, basically an RBL dressed up to look like a Fox . . . but since Savage owns the name and they did that once before (Fox Model B, which was a Stevens dressed up to look like a Fox) that didn't bother me all that much. The gun performed perfectly with both factory loads and reloads. I had an assignment to review the gun in Pointing Dog Journal. Liked it so much I decided to buy one. The field test gun had matte finish barrels and I wanted a traditional blue. No problem, they say.

So gun arrives at my gunsmith's with blued barrels. But he points out that there's something strange about the checkering on the wrist. Looks like it's 2-toned. That's because half the panel is clearly coarser than the other half. Not sure how you screw up laser checkering, but they did. So I told them I was sending it back. Profuse apology . . . we'll make sure the next one is right.

Attempt #2 arrived . . . with matte finish barrels, as well as the same screwed up checkering. At which point I told the guy at Savage (or actually the conglomerate that owns Savage) that they really need to lean on CSMC about quality control. Bad marks to both CSMC and Savage for missing that. Also told them that I was done trying to get one that was right, and I wouldn't be doing an article on the gun.

We're talking a gun that retailed in the mid-$4K range, so more like an RBL in that respect than either a Model 21 or an A-10. But when something as glaring as the checkering is messed up, someone's not doing their job. And when those guns were still being marketed actively, I saw several on the Internet (mostly on Cabela's website) with the same messed up checkering. That makes 3 companies that screwed up, because Cabela's should have sent them back to Savage.

big al1 #580447 09/22/20 11:17 PM
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I have not had to use CSMC for repair work but my sales experience with them was off-putting. Last spring and summer, I scoured every dealer site and auction house (including prior sales) for a 30” 20ga Fox in CE or XE grade. I located a DE through this board but could not convince the owner to part ways with it. At that point, I decided to order a gun to spec...a CE. I reached out to CSMC in August to understand what the ordering process was and to see if they would take a pair of guns in trade as the deposit. We discussed the specs and my request for just scroll engraving. They gave me a verbal estimate for costs and delivery and committed to accepting the pair as 40% of the total costs based on the pics I sent. I requested everything in writing because it was a significant purchase for me. Over the next several months and multiple “I’ll email you tomorrow” responses, I wondered if I would even get the order in by my birthday in December (I didn’t). They eventually started to waffle on taking the pair and said they needed to see them in person to judge condition and were mumbling about the amount they committed to. Mind you I dealt with the same individual through this whole process. I wound up buying an XE from a dealer this spring that is very close to what I would have ordered. That experience was a complete 180 from my experience with CSMC. Before I bought it, I asked CSMC if they could confirm the XE’s specs when it left their shop (particularly chokes) to which Carol responded “we don’t release private information like that.” Uh, ok. If I buy another CSMC gun, it won’t be through them.

big al1 #580759 09/28/20 08:57 PM
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I have two RBLs, one in 20ga and one in 12ga. The 12ga is a heavy frame that I use for duck hunting. Both have been given excellent service. I had an Inverness. Was a beautiful gun but not the quality of the RBLs. I traded the Inverness toward an A-10 Rose&Scroll 12ga w/exhibition wood. The A-10 became loose really quickly so I sent it back to CSMS and they fixed it. The A-10 now has several thousand shells through it and I am happy that I purchased it. My contacts with CSMS have always been positive.

big al1 #580787 09/29/20 11:03 AM
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When the RBL 20 was announced, I placed an order for one. When I was visiting NJ, prior to our RBLs being delivered, Builder and I called ahead to CSMC for a tour. We were met by Tony Galazan and he took us on a personal tour for at least an hour. He was humble and polite. They had an impressive operation.

In the years since, I've bought a set of Parker Reproduction barrels from them and they were very high quality.

A friend here had 3 CSM guns, 2 M21s and a Fox in 410. The 21s seemed to give durable duty, but the tiny framed Fox 410 broke ejectors and other parts enough that CSM had the gun longer than my friend in the few years he owned it. So he sold it cheap.

I think CSM has been in a rapid growth phase for the past 10 years or so and is having growing pains. I'd still like to see them succeed.

L. Brown #580790 09/29/20 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
I got my hands on a Savage Fox A Grade that had made the rounds of several other outdoor writers as a field test gun. Frankly, I was impressed. As I said before, basically an RBL dressed up to look like a Fox . . . but since Savage owns the name and they did that once before (Fox Model B, which was a Stevens dressed up to look like a Fox) that didn't bother me all that much. The gun performed perfectly with both factory loads and reloads. I had an assignment to review the gun in Pointing Dog Journal. Liked it so much I decided to buy one. The field test gun had matte finish barrels and I wanted a traditional blue. No problem, they say.

So gun arrives at my gunsmith's with blued barrels. But he points out that there's something strange about the checkering on the wrist. Looks like it's 2-toned. That's because half the panel is clearly coarser than the other half. Not sure how you screw up laser checkering, but they did. So I told them I was sending it back. Profuse apology . . . we'll make sure the next one is right.

Attempt #2 arrived . . . with matte finish barrels, as well as the same screwed up checkering. At which point I told the guy at Savage (or actually the conglomerate that owns Savage) that they really need to lean on CSMC about quality control. Bad marks to both CSMC and Savage for missing that. Also told them that I was done trying to get one that was right, and I wouldn't be doing an article on the gun.

We're talking a gun that retailed in the mid-$4K range, so more like an RBL in that respect than either a Model 21 or an A-10. But when something as glaring as the checkering is messed up, someone's not doing their job. And when those guns were still being marketed actively, I saw several on the Internet (mostly on Cabela's website) with the same messed up checkering. That makes 3 companies that screwed up, because Cabela's should have sent them back to Savage.


And there lies the problem with gun writers. You should’ve wrote the article about the gun they sent you. Instead...they wait for a “perfect example” to write a glowing review on. What the consumer will get is usually entirely different.
Seriously, when’s the last time anyone’s read a negative review on a gun? It doesn’t happen that often. It seems gun writers are bound to write more than glowing reviews on the guns in hopes of receiving some sort of perk (free gun, discounted gun, trip, free or discounted services, etc), very few in my circle take a gun review very seriously that appears in a magazine.

big al1 #580818 09/29/20 10:25 PM
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I the first Savage Larry was talking about and pictures of the one they wanted him to buy. NOBODY that knows anything about sxs or checkering would have touched that gun with a 10 foot pole. Damned by faint or in this case no praise is what happened. But then I've always felt you could get custom wood and tart up a Japanese SKB and have the same thing for a LOT less than an RBL by ay other name.

big al1 #580835 09/30/20 08:43 AM
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I don't know that re-creating a "Classic" gun is very easy. Remington built the 3200 to fill in their line with a quality O/U like the pre-WWII Model 32. The 3200 was a fine gun but missed the overall appeal of the 32 and it broke a lot. I used the Remington's as examples, I have owned and shot competition with both.

Last edited by AZMike; 09/30/20 08:59 AM.
big al1 #580865 09/30/20 03:20 PM
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AZMike's latest post didn't comment on the subject of the thread. Sorry, Mike, we are not talking about Model 32s or over under shotguns. I would like to know more about CSMC shotguns.

eightbore #580870 09/30/20 04:25 PM
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Poorly stocked, shabby laser engraving, limited possibilities.
I think Tony and Lou should be horse whipped then tarred and feathered. wink















Oh yeah, that's right.
Exhibition Walnut, hand engraved by Masters and you can have them any way you want.
I suppose most of the critics have never even held one let alone shot or hunted with a CSMC double.
2 of the nicest guns I've ever owned.




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