doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com winchester 23 and steel shot

I only impersonate a metallurgist on DoubleGunBBS, only know what I read (which requires the willingness to do the research), and what I have been told by genuine metallurgical, materials, and mechanical engineers.

Choosing a steel that is suitable for a shotgun barrel (or any application) has multiple factors:
Ultimate tensile strength (when it breaks)
Yield strength and % elongation (measure of ductility)
Brittleness (the opposite of ductility � a brittle metal has a low % elongation before fracture)
Impact resistance/hardness
Corrosion resistance
And some other stuff I don�t understand

Early �steel shot� (which is annealed iron) had a Brinell hardness of 70 � 110
The standard now is 95 DPH or Brinell 79
Lead shot has a Brinell hardness of about 12

A pre-WWI shotgun barrels of AISI 1020 has a (NON HEAT TREATED) tensile strength of about 62,000 psi with a Brinell hardness of about 120
A post-1920s shotgun barrel of AISI 1040 has a tensile strength of about 90,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 197
AISI 2340 Nickel steel has a tensile strength of about 110,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 194
AISI 4140 Chrome Moly has a tensile strength of about 100,000 psi and Brinell hardness of 197

A single specimen of Winchester Nickel Steel was non-standard AISI 2340 with a tensile strength of 124,000 psi (suggesting some form of heat treatment)
A single specimen of Winchester Proof Steel (Chrome Molybdenum alloy) was non-standard AISI 4135 with a tensile strength of 107,000 psi


Steel alloys (the extremely short version)
Carbon � Higher C increase hardness, tensile strength, and hardenability with heat treatment
Manganese - prevents the formation of iron sulfide inclusions, and increases the hardenability
(Manganese sulfide improves machinability but inclusions weaken the steel)
Chromium - increases the hardenability of steel and markedly improves the corrosion resistance
Molybdenum - increases hardenability and elevated temperature strength.
Nickel - increases hardenability, impact resistance, and ductility of the steel.

Chrome lining (done correctly) adds significant hardness and corrosion resistance


There is no doubt that steel shot can score �softer� shotgun barrels



"Wrinkling" and fracture at the choke area



It has also been suggested that steel shot can cause micro-fractures in the forcing cone




Few modern makers are willing to disclose the composition of their shotgun barrels. Beretta Steelium (NOT on the periodic table ) is a "proprietary tri-alloy blend". There is good data however that most (non-stainless steel) "steel shot compatible" barrels are something similar to 4140 or 4340.

So with a choke of no more than Improved cylinder with a 1984 model winchester 23 Heavy Duck could I shoot modern numbered (usually #4) steel shot. I just find it hard to believe that a gun manufactured during a time when steel shot was required in certain areas for waterfowl that winchester made a Heavy Duck gun that would not handle steel shot.

I called winchester and ask them what the standard inside bore diameter was for a 23 HD was and the reply was "we don't have that information". I ask about shooting steel shot in the gun and they said "no". How can you not know the standard internal bore diameter, but know if you can shoot steel.

I shoot steel in my pre-Type one Browning Citori
(Manufactured 1973 through 1976) choked IC/MOD.
Made in Japan by Miroku.
I do use 2 3/4 and 3" ammo.
Shot many hundreds of rounds of steel and thousands
of rounds of lead, even buckshot.

No issues with that particular gun BUT I was willing to sacrifice that gun in the endeavor.

Mike

fun reading

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35630

https://www.browning.com/support/frequen...ng-shotgun.html

I understand the implications of choke and the density of steel shot and its resistance to compression George. It is just beyond my imagination that any shotgun manufacturer would market a barrel today that would not handle steel provided the precautions on choke and shot size were adhered to.

The gun says on the right barrel "made in japan".

Drew Hause, what is the model/models of double you took pictures of?

The short answer is YES. Your 23 will handle steel shot. Modern steel loads, the shot will never come close to contacting the bore. Stick with moderate velocity and shot no larger than 2 and you will be fine. The tightest choke constriction should be no more than 20 thousandths. A great combo is .010 & .015...if you�re pass shooting or taking longer shots, .020 will work too.
Keep your draw bolt tight/snug and periodically check it throughout the season. Get the plastic fouling out of the bore after each hunt and you should be good to go. I have friends who�ve been using BSS�s & 23�s with steel for a couple decades now with no ill effects on the barrels, the only problem I�ve heard of is of several guns coming off the face after several thousand Duck load rounds. In my opinion....that�s gonna happen to pretty much any double used for waterfowling eventually. Goes with the territory. If it starts getting a little wiggly in the joint...have it rejointed and use it for a few more thousand rounds (aka a couple decades).

Have to agree. I've seen steel shot used in BSS's, Winchesters, older Citoris and a few others since steel shot came out with no ill effects if the gun is set up properly choke wise. I have a 1973 Superposed 20 gauge that belonged to my Uncle. He had the chokes opened to modified and shot steel through it for waterfowl every year since it was mandatory. It certainly hasn't hurt the gun.

I shoot 2 3/4 steel in one of my Daly Miroku 500's but it has been opened from M/F to modified. A few years, probably ten with no problems I have noted...Geo

Bismuth works better though!

As said I'm not going to use any steel cartridges in my HD 23 F&F as the waterfowl volume I'm going to be shooting nowadays looks negligible, bismuth will do. I am looking for a 20 gauge S&S advertised as steel capable like a Rizzini or some something. A friend wants me to come out to California and work my dogs with his at his hunt club. Fascinating information from Drew Hause. Like my Father often said: "You'll learn something new every day if you're not careful".