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Joined: Nov 2020
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
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If Harris Holland's serial numbers were sequential, you're probably looking at a muzzle-loader built around 1864 or so, when Holland was also making pinfire guns. That's late-ish for a muzzle-loader, though it also means they were at their peak of design and quality.
It has always been fascinating to me that in 1864 a sportsman had the choice of several popular systems to choose from, from percussion to pinfire, needlefire and centrefire. So, if correct, that puts it just a few years before he took his nephew on as a partner. I've been looking it over in more detail. I've managed to make out much of the writing on the rib..."? Holland 9?? New Bond Street, London"...which is correct from what I've read. I've also discovered that the right bore still has what looks like wadding in it and the ramrod only goes down about what I would guess to be a loaded chamber. I don't know that for certain of course, though it sure looks like wadding to keep the shot in place. It has, what appears to be the original Ramrod, though the two keeper loops are missing. You can see where they were at one time though. I will do some more work on cleaning it and get pictures posted soon. Thanks for your help so far!
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Does the ramrod have a threaded hole in the ferrule on the end? If so, and you could determine the thread pitch, you can get a "worm" that fits in there. You then use the ramrod as a "screwdriver" and screw the worm into the wadding securely, then pull it out. You can then "dig" out the old shot charge. There will be a wad also between the shot and the powder. After removing it you can "dig" out the old powder charge. You will almost certainly find that the old powder has attracted moisture and has rusted the breech area badly. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=worm Before doing any of this I would prop the gun with the muzzles up and pour a copious amount of WD-40 down onto the old charge. Leave it several days for the liquid to soak down into the powder, rendering it inert. You cannot be certain it is inert without doing so, and you are in harm's way as you stand in front of the muzzles trying to remove the charge. I have pulled charges without doing that, but I wasn't giving advice to someone else, it was me and me. If you're thinking "It's 150 years old, it's harmless" I offer this as a side note to show how long black powder can remain viable, under perfect conditions ............. I have a friend who used to be a fanatical WBTS artifact collector. He used a Nautilus metal detector and once found a big cannonball several feet deep. Some time after getting it home he found that he could remove the "fuse", or whatever the part is that set off the explosion upon impact. He did so and found a goodly amount of grayish colored black powder therein. He removed it, and on a whim, loaded some into a flintlock rifle and fired it. It was a bit weak, in his opinion, but still usable some 120 + years after the late unpleasantness had ended. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Thanks Stan. I promise I don't have any illusions about how dangerous that charge could be or how corrosive BP is. I considered it a nice wall hanger when I bought it and still do. I didn't intend to ever attempt to shoot the gun. I was just hoping to have some history to go along with it. I contacted Holland & Holland, they will send me a history of the gun, which is nice. I might inquire about the cost of restoration to see if it can be cleaned up. May not be worth it though, considering it is not likely not ever be shootable. MJH
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
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Actually, BP is not very corrosive at all. It's fouling is, but the powder, not really. It will be compacted and stuck together but getting it out is not going to be that hard if you have a breech face scraper. However, it is also easily "dissolved" with water. Water is a far better solvent for bp than any oil and you will be able to remove it in a minute or two. It would be interesting to see what that powder looks like if you get it out dry.
If you have a half decent gunshop near by, you might find they have a "worm" such as Stan described and a scraper that will fit an 8 or 10 by 32 tpi cleaning rod. For a few bucks, it would be worth it. You don't need a shotgun gauge-specific one either, though that would be nice.
Eventually however, you will be well served by scrubbing the breech with water and patches on brushes, drying, using WD40 to assist with that and then oiling as per normal.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Joined: Nov 2020
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Boxlock
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Ah, now I learned something. I always thought the sulfur in black powder, when combined with moisture, was quite corrosive when in contact with metal.
I've inquired about the cost of possible restoration by Holland & Holland, though I'm sure this would be quite expensive. Might still be worth it though.
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Posts: 6,670 Likes: 372 |
GO, it's just not hydroscopic. That's why bp stays viable, more or less, forever.
I sure wish you would post some detailed pictures of the gun. Must be a beauty. And it may be perfectly fine to shoot (or not).
If the barrel was loaded when it was clean, I would expect the chamber area to be in pretty good condition.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Yes, it would be nice to see some pics. If you get a quote from H&H for restoration you had better be sitting down. The gun has no sentimental value to you so you need to give careful consideration to having a restore done by the likes of H&H. You can, however, still breathe some new life into it without going to the expense of a full restoration by H&H. Mind you, I have no clue about your financial status and maybe money is no object as far as a restoration cost. If that is the case "go for it" as it is nice to have these guns resurrected. That is providing there is something there worth working with in the first place.
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Yea, I expect it to be on the high end of expensive. I might also look for a good gunsmith who specializes in this type of firearm. There are still a few old-school artisans around. Though they are becoming scarce.
Who knows, maybe it will be enough to do some light cleaning on my own and, with the history I get from H&H I'll be content.
I will try to get some pictures posted later today or tomorrow. Have to find a website to host them since I can't upload directly.
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Joined: Oct 2019
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
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Grumpy, if you decide a full restoration is not feasible for you check the thread for my 11ga W. Morse & Co. percussion SxS which begins in August of ‘19. I decided to just thoroughly clean and stabilize this family heirloom and Steve (SKB) was a great help as were others of this forum.
Speude Bradeos
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1129 |
My apologies if I gave some wrong information concerning black powder attracting moisture and causing rust. I was only going on past experience. When I hunted with roundball guns I once loaded my.54 cal. Leman and hunted that afternoon without taking a shot. I left the rifle loaded, thinking I would go again soon. I didn't, and ended up leaving it loaded for three months. When I pulled the charge and cleaned it I found that the chamber where the powder charge had been had rusted badly. I naturally assumed that moisture had caused it. It did not affect accuracy as it is behind the ball.
There was not a trace of any rust in the breech prior to leaving that load in it. Brent, if the powder couldn't have caused it, what did?
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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