doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Over Under with German Connection

Interesting French O/U 16 gauge. Of additional note, the receiver indicates the shotgun was made in St. Etienne, however it is also inscribed with "Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" indicating that the gun's receiver was imported from Germany. No maker's mark are indicated on the gun from what I can see. Anyone have any ideas regarding the identity crisis that this 16 is having, or any other information?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101540609

Here were my observations via PM.



"Acier Comprime" - compressed steel....means nothing an advertisement

"COA Canons" - this will be the barrel maker. I cannot identify "COA" as yet (if the letters are correct - they are stylized). I thought it might be a mark for Saint-Etienne barrel maker (Cannoniere) Chavot Armuriere - founded in 1924 by Jean Chavot - fourth generation still at it. I might write to try to confirm or will continue to search the internet.

"Choke" (word indistinct)" with "SMR" in the semi-circle. Usually the word "choke" is associated with "rectifie" which means nothing. The initials though will mean something. I'll search more. Need to confirm they are "SMR".

There is an inscription "Medaille d'or" (Gold Medal) on the barrel...obviously a prize won by the barrel maker at some world's fair. We should be able to turn this up.



The gun is advertised as having 2 3/4" chambers. If so they are lengthened. They originally are 65mm (2 1/2"). Chamber length in MM so after June 1912.

"17.4" = `16 bore

Proofed for PT powder (smokeless nitro - post 1900).

It is double proofed in Saint-Etienne.

"Fusil Fabrique a Saint-Etienne" - Gun made in Saint-Etienne



"Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" - With Action imported from Germany



Can't help with the cocking rods unfortunately...not familiar enough with O/U. Again Raimey or Ted or wild cattle or Larry might recognize something.

It's got that little half pistol grip stock which is Saint-Etienne. The butt plate is very French.

The interesting thing for me is "Allemangne". It's not "Ouest Allemangne" (West Germany) or FRG (created in 1949)...it's just "Germany." so Post 1991? It looks a lot older than that. It may be just after WWII...and occupied Germany was still just "Germany." There was a Lyon regional country-side pursuits fair in 1949. Wonder if the Gold Medal came from there? Or it could be even earlier....1930's?

I was trying to understand when the first French O/U (superpos�) was made. The Verney Caron site claims the first French mass produced O/U was the V-C "Sagittaire" which came out in the mid-1960's.

Could this gun could be an order from the 1930's, before France made O/U guns? Yet, the barrels were still made in France - not an easy thing to do. Confusing.

A la Lib�ration, elle se retrouve confront�e � la concurrence d�loyale des arsenaux de l'Etat, car le ministre Charles Tillon d�cide que les manufactures de Tulle, Ch�tellerault et Saint-Etienne doivent fabriquer des fusils de chasse. � En 1885, mon arri�re-grand-p�re avait plaid� pour pouvoir red�marrer la fabrication de pi�ces d'armes militaires interdite par Napol�on III, ce qui a permis aux Belges et aux Anglais de prendre une avance consid�rable sur notre industrie nationale de l'armement �, commente l'actuel pr�sident. L'accord pass� en 1954 avec Franchi permet � son entreprise de fabriquer sous licence un fusil de chasse semi-automatique tr�s l�ger con�u par l'armurier italien et lui donne sa dimension industrielle.

Douze ans plus tard, c'est le lancement du Sagittaire, produit embl�matique de Verney-Carron, premier fusil superpos� fran�ais fabriqu� en grande s�rie, qui s'octroie tr�s vite une place de leader sur le march�.

When I get asked about a French O/U, it usually leads to just a few brands of guns, several versions of the Verney Carron Sagittaire, a Picard Fayolle Dactu , or a Petrek.

No clue on this one. The German connection is not something I�ve seen before.

I would lean more toward pre WWII, with the double proof. The short chambers on an O/U give me that thought as well.

I can�t add much more than that.

Best,
Ted

I've done some looking and I must say the curiosity quotient is pegging. I think this barrel maker mark will be key. I sent an email to Chavot. I'll try to post on a French site again.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post285169


I'll have to do some diggin' but it might be a Krieghoff variant?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

While it might be that Verney-Carron made the first truly mass produced OU's in France, the Petriks were made during the between the wars period.

The receiver is interesting. While the exterior looks something like a Merkel, the interior photos verify that it's a totally different bolting system. Nothing like the Kersten.

Gene, my memory isn't 100% on this, but digging way back, I seem to recall that "choke" on a barrel (minus rectifie) indicated full choke.

Larry,
Beginning around the year 2000, the Bruchet�s built new Petrks. They had repaired, rebarreled, and restocked them for many years prior.

Toward the end of production, they were building an O/U that was advertised as a �Blitz� action gun. I only saw pictures, but, it was nowhere near as svelte as a Petrik.

http://www.fusildarne.com/models-gun-rifle-juxtaposed-express?model=4-fusil-superpose

Best,
Ted

Thanks, Ted. I didn't realize that. I have a Darne brochure from a gun shop in Rouen, which I must have picked up in 1977 when I was there with a group of American college students. In addition to the traditional Darne sxs, the brochure shows 3 different OU models which, from the brochure, Darne claims to be making. Other than that very typical small round knob French grip, they look to be pretty much standard top break OU's. And that's how the brochure describes them. I don't recall actually seeing any of those Darne OU's in the shop in question. But I was probably focused on the sxs, and may have missed them.

I am still diggin' but does anyone remember that odd Krieghoff O/U(odd bird0 that was for-sale some years back? I have perused thru what I can find of Emil Flues and for the life of me I cannot find an example that has those teats / protrusions on the standing breech.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse