March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
1 members (Travis S), 251 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,373
Posts543,976
Members14,389
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#584072 11/12/20 02:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
I just received my new to me Janssen Fils & C SxS. Well kinda received..for the 5th time this year my approval has been "Delayed". I know I need to get my CWP.

I have been trying to decipher the Proof Marks.
I figured out:
Black Powder proof.
Choke xx.x post used post 1924
S# 89736
Gauge & Length 20/70 post 1924

But nothing else, including the date and the smokeless proof

I was hoping to shoot it this weekend but now I have concerns as I am new to the Older guns

Thank you all so much

Jim



















Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 641
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 641
Likes: 3
Odd that it has a 70mm chamber but not proofed for smokeless? Do you suppose the large number 2 means this was part of a set?

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Well that is confusing.

As you observed, the 20-70 in the Omega is definitely post-1924.
There are not however lettre annales nor Smokeless Powder proof marks. Smokeless proof was obligatory post-1924.

Are the markings on the rib/barrels in English? It is not uncommon to see Belgian doubles intended for the U.S. market to not carry Smokeless Proof as there was an additional charge therefor.

'HS' or 'SH' could be the dealer? Spalding-Haywood Arms Co. was in Denver

The fluid steel barrels were by Laurent Lochet-Habran who supplied tubes to most of the U.S. double gun makers, including Hunter Arms, Baker and Ithaca.

If the wall thicknesses are OK, I would not be worried about the absence of Smokeless Proof. The rough forged tubes WERE proved before the joining and finishing.

I would think that the gun would be shown in the 1926 catalog
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3618

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
These pictures are all I have at the moment The ATF put me on hold until tuesday. But from what I remember the only writing was Dutch. I thought that it was "Janssen Son if made for the US market.


Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Is it Fils & Cie or Fils & Co?


Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
It does look like Co, English my mistake.

Can the date of manufacture be discerned?

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 87
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 87
Likes: 2
Are the inspectors' marks above the provisional BP proof marks star over L; If so should be Antoine Salmon 1937...1968.
Leon Chesnoy 1927...1955 & 1959...1968 for the star over Y on action flats.

According to "Gun Proof in Belgium" by Lee Kennett in the "1978 Gun Digest" under the system of 1924 the ordinary provisional proof for 20 gauge barrels complete save chambering at 11,700 psi was 11 grams of powder and 42 grams of shot and the definitive black powder proof at 9,100 psi for maximum chamber length of 2 3/4", 9 grams of powder and 33.3 grams of shot.

According to Kennett the two separate nitro proofs were "theoretically optional" under the 1924 rules of proof.

Markus

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
One last question; for now...

it says Choke 15.9 which translates to .626 I think...I was an English major...What does that translate as to today's choke nomenclature? IM?

The seller advertised them to be IC & IM .010 & .023. I'm confused...I will mic them when I get it home.

BTW: it is a pretty little gun, feels great in my hands, mounts perfectly with a 15" LOP, I am looking right down the rail. Next is to see if it shoots straight.

Thanks for your help in all this.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
CHOKE means a muzzle constriction of > 2mm = about .008"

15.9 is the bore at .626" which is generous for 20g; standard is .615". You will need a bore gauge to accurately measure the chokes; not a simple rule gauge.

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 87
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 87
Likes: 2
The 1924 rules mark does not give the diameter of the choked portion any more, just the unchoked bore size.

From littlegun.be:

JANSSEN Fils & Co (Banc d’épreuve de Liège 1895 – 1937) et sise rue Lambert Le bègue, 4 à LIEGE.

Etablissements JANSSEN Fils & Co S.A. (Banc d’épreuve de Liège 1937 – 1951 ) sise à LIEGE rue St Gilles,87.

Fabrique d’Armes JANSSEN Fils & Co S.A. (Banc d’épreuve de Liège de 1951 à 1954) rue St Gilles, 87 à LIEGE également.

Assuming the inspectors' marks add up manufactured 1937...1954 (probably little production during WWII).

Markus

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.066s Queries: 35 (0.041s) Memory: 0.8439 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 08:37:35 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS