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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388 |
As far as I know, the P or T stamp on the forend hanger is indeed the most reliable indicator of Ithaca assembly... aside from the guns that actually have Lefever Arms Co., Ithaca, N.Y. stamped on the sideplates.
I have always felt that far too many guns with unusual features are wrongly attributed to Ithaca assembly. It never made any sense to me that a Company with chronic financial difficulties would have frames and components for many thousands of guns in inventory at the time of the sale to Ithaca. If you study them long enough and look at all of the apparent out of sequence serial numbers, it seems to make more sense that quite a few guns that were prototype models, or perhaps contained experimental features, and were probably evaluated, tested, or otherwise held back before finally being sold to either the general public or employees. Dan Lefever and his sons were always tinkering with the design. Some features were very short-lived, which can make it difficult to find parts at times.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6 |
I have an 12 ga. H with 28" twist barrels and automatic ejectors.
W. E. Boyd
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 104 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 104 Likes: 1 |
So... those of you with Lefever twist bbl guns, are you shooting them with RSTs or some other low pressure loads?
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
Just for clarification, the pattern welded tubes used in the Lefever H were labeled "Best London Twist", and "Best London Damascus Twist" by Baker. This is a Lefever H refinished by Breck Gorman that demonstrates 2 end-on rods, which is a quite different "lopin" from Twist ( alternees of iron and steel simply layered then mechanically rolled into rods, which BTW were not "twisted" before being wrapped around the mandrel.) Steve Culver believes that the "mushrooming" of the surface was from hammering. A Twist tube with an end-on rod Doesn't really matter as in my tensile testing study the Damascus-Twist specimens had about the same strength as the Twist, and both slightly less than Crolle Damascus https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 104 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 104 Likes: 1 |
Just for clarification, the pattern welded tubes used in the Lefever H were labeled "Best London Twist", and "Best London Damascus Twist" by Baker. This is a Lefever H refinished by Breck Gorman that demonstrates 2 end-on rods, which is a quite different "lopin" from Twist ( alternees of iron and steel simply layered then mechanically rolled into rods, which BTW were not "twisted" before being wrapped around the mandrel.) Steve Culver believes that the "mushrooming" of the surface was from hammering. A Twist tube with an end-on rod Doesn't really matter as in my tensile testing study the Damascus-Twist specimens had about the same strength as the Twist, and both slightly less than Crolle Damascus https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit The H grade I saw had doll's head extension. That one looks like a DS, no?
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
Sorry for the confusion. That is a Baker Model of 1897 hammer gun. The New Baker, Syracuse hammer gun also used Damascus-Twist.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,334 Likes: 388 |
John E, after reading your posts again, it appears that you are saying that your twist barreled DS grade Lefever has several features that point to Ithaca, N.Y. assembly.
I find that very interesting, because the two DS guns I own that have twist barrels, cocking indicators, LAC monogram buttplates, and doll's head rib extension do not show any indication that they were assembled by Ithaca Gun Co. Nor do any of the other guns in that scarce DS grade variation, which I have examined.
Could you please tell us the serial number range of this gun, and what other clues it has that it may have been assembled by Ithaca, aside from a P stamp on the forend hanger? It would be especially interesting to know if your gun has more than one serial number on the underside of the barrels, because some Lefever owners were scrambling to purchase extra or replacement barrels while parts were still available from Ithaca. The completed guns were being discounted up to 40% during that short three year time-span.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514 Likes: 13 |
John E, after reading your posts again, it appears that you are saying that your twist barreled DS grade Lefever has several features that point to Ithaca, N.Y. assembly.
I find that very interesting, because the two DS guns I own that have twist barrels, cocking indicators, LAC monogram buttplates, and doll's head rib extension do not show any indication that they were assembled by Ithaca Gun Co. Nor do any of the other guns in that scarce DS grade variation, which I have examined.
Could you please tell us the serial number range of this gun, and what other clues it has that it may have been assembled by Ithaca, aside from a P stamp on the forend hanger? It would be especially interesting to know if your gun has more than one serial number on the underside of the barrels, because some Lefever owners were scrambling to purchase extra or replacement barrels while parts were still available from Ithaca. The completed guns were being discounted up to 40% during that short three year time-span. Keith, My gun #59122, has Twist barrels, dolls head, and cocking indicators. Frame is stamped "DS". Sideplates stamped "LEFEVER ARMS CO.,". No address line. Forend has no escutcheon or metal forend tip. Buttstock has POW grip, no flutes at comb, and early Nitro Special checkering pattern. LOP=14" to unmarked buttplate( stock is straight cut, so maybe a replacement). Barrel Flats each stamped "I". Left tube stamped "59122 H". Forend hanger flat between barrels stamped "59122" Forend hanger lug stamped "I" and perpendicular "P". These indicators shout ITHACA to me. Your mileage may vary, John
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 286 Likes: 6 |
So what do I shoot in mine? I load 1-1 1/8 oz of whatever size is appropriate to about 9.5-10K psi depending on what powders and wads I have on hand. The chokes are M/F.
W. E. Boyd
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 514 Likes: 13 |
So what do I shoot in mine? I load 1-1 1/8 oz of whatever size is appropriate to about 9.5-10K psi depending on what powders and wads I have on hand. The chokes are M/F. docbill, The consensus, assuming sound tubes,clean bores with adequate wall thicknesses, and tight/on face lock-up, is to stay under 9000psi. I try to stay under 8000psi and 1oz or under weights. Recoil can destroy old wood. John
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