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Joined: Feb 2012
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Originally Posted by Stan
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

I'm not missing the point. I have bought, and shot, 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads by the case. I, however, am not recoil sensitive, and can shoot even 1 1/4 oz. 12 ga. loads without undue sensitivity. I say, in response, that those who are recoil sensitive should not be so close minded as to think that all others are as they are.

if you are okay with chippy breaks, okay. I'm not. I want dust when I'm on a clay bird. This will also help ensure dishrag dead birds in the field, not wounded runners that the dogs have to run down and, hopefully, find.

Also, flinching is not always caused by recoil. Much, if not most, of it is caused by a disconnect between the brain and the trigger finger that is a result of the brain not being "comfortable" with what the eyes see as the proper lead....... an "Afraid I'll miss" syndrome.

How do the 3/4 - 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load shooters hunt ducks, or do they? If they do, do they justify their recoil sensitivity by saying that the increased accuracy of shooting impotent loads ensures dead ducks, even with less than adequate loads? Or, do they say that because I shoot light loads at clays I can tolerate a few adequate loads at ducks? Just trying to understand a train of thought that I do not, currently. I have used the gamut of loads for game birds, from 1/2 oz. .410 loads for doves to 1 1/4 oz. for ducks. There are posters here who disparage, and disavow, the use of a .410 for doves and other small game birds. But, they promote the use of subgauge loads in a 12 ga. I don't get it.

SRH
You are missing the point.

For me at least, there is a huge difference between shooting 100 or sometimes more shots in a day @ clay targets & shooting 10 or usually less 1 1/16 oz or 1 1/4 oz loads in a day of hunting. I don't remember ever flinching in a hunting situation but the cumulative effect of clay shooting does set my flinching off & lighter loads do help. I have had enough conversations with other shooters that I know I'm not alone on this. If recoil doesn't bother you consider yourself very very lucky. You will get no argument from me that 1 1/8 oz won't outperform 7/8 oz as long as the shooter can handle the recoil. The extra payload is harder on the gun though.

Joined: Apr 2020
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You both may be missing the point. This may be about putting 5000 +- rounds a year through a 100 yr old gun. The light loads may be more to keep gun wear slow rather than recoils human effect. That’s the way I would look at it. Brittany Man’s last sentence may be the entire reason the original poster wants to shoot 7/8 oz 12 ga loads.

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Thought I made both points but whatever. Certainly not worth arguing about.

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I apologize for moving this thread O/T.

To answer the OP's question given the guns he listed my choice would be a quality British boxlock, preferably a heavier one with 2 3/4 in chambers & 3 1/4 ton 1 1/4 oz proof. Something like a like pigeon gun or a waterfowl gun.

For myself I am currently shooting a Perazzi DC 12 for a SxS clays gun & so far it has been trouble free. Prior to the DC 12 for SxS clays I mostly shot a CSMC 21, a Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special & a Parker Reproduction Sporting Clays Special in that order. For what it is worth I had ejector issues w/the Parker Repro Sporting Special & I had to have the joint pin replaced on the CSMC 21.

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Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by Stan
[quote=Ky Jon] If I wanted to shoot 7/8 ounce loads I’d get a 20. {/quote]

Amen, and Amen!

SRH
I think some of you are missing the point of shooting 7/8 oz loads in a 12 ga @ sporting clays.

For us recoil sensitive shooters a 7/8 oz load at around 1200 fps in a 12 ga of typical weight is a lot more pleasant to shoot than than the same 7/8 oz load in a 20 ga of typical weight. If I had discovered the 7/8 oz 12 ga load earlier I might not have the flinching problem that I do + the load is gentle on old & new shotguns.

To get the same level of recoil with equal loads the 20 ga would need the same weight as @ 12 ga & other than use in shoots that handicap for gauge & small bore bragging rights I don't see the point of shooting a 20 ga that weighs as much as a 12 ga.

I'm not missing the point. I have bought, and shot, 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads by the case. I, however, am not recoil sensitive, and can shoot even 1 1/4 oz. 12 ga. loads without undue sensitivity. I say, in response, that those who are recoil sensitive should not be so close minded as to think that all others are as they are.

if you are okay with chippy breaks, okay. I'm not. I want dust when I'm on a clay bird. This will also help ensure dishrag dead birds in the field, not wounded runners that the dogs have to run down and, hopefully, find.

Also, flinching is not always caused by recoil. Much, if not most, of it is caused by a disconnect between the brain and the trigger finger that is a result of the brain not being "comfortable" with what the eyes see as the proper lead....... an "Afraid I'll miss" syndrome.

How do the 3/4 - 7/8 oz. 12 ga. load shooters hunt ducks, or do they? If they do, do they justify their recoil sensitivity by saying that the increased accuracy of shooting impotent loads ensures dead ducks, even with less than adequate loads? Or, do they say that because I shoot light loads at clays I can tolerate a few adequate loads at ducks? Just trying to understand a train of thought that I do not, currently. I have used the gamut of loads for game birds, from 1/2 oz. .410 loads for doves to 1 1/4 oz. for ducks. There are posters here who disparage, and disavow, the use of a .410 for doves and other small game birds. But, they promote the use of subgauge loads in a 12 ga. I don't get it.

SRH
You are missing the point.

For me at least, there is a huge difference between shooting 100 or sometimes more shots in a day @ clay targets & shooting 10 or usually less 1 1/16 oz or 1 1/4 oz loads in a day of hunting. I don't remember ever flinching in a hunting situation but the cumulative effect of clay shooting does set my flinching off & lighter loads do help. I have had enough conversations with other shooters that I know I'm not alone on this. If recoil doesn't bother you consider yourself very very lucky. You will get no argument from me that 1 1/8 oz won't outperform 7/8 oz as long as the shooter can handle the recoil. The extra payload is harder on the gun though.

I may be........but I don't think so. However, you may be missing the point, of the OP. The OP said nothing in his posts about recoil sensitivity as being a concern for him. His posts read to me like the concern was with helping the gun last longer. Certainly, lighter loads will stress certain parts of the gun less. But, the guns were not designed to have to be shot with light 7/8 oz. loads. I've got no truck with someone who wants to do so if they really believe they are forestalling repairs to the gun. They are the ones paying their bills. But, having shot 12 ga. vintage doubles for going on thirty years, without using these light loads in them, I can honestly say that my gun breakdowns have not been recoil related. In fact, they have been almost non-existent. But, I don't buy and shoot what most consider typical 12 ga. lightweight game guns. I will state that, IMO, the difference in a 7/8 oz. load at 1200, and a 1 oz. load at 1150 is not going to make your gun last any longer. I think the builders of these guns would have laughed at that supposition.


"With one foot in the grave ..........and one foot on the pedal, I was born a Rebel" T.P.
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Nitrah Offline OP
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since I started this maybe I should clarify. I use the 7/8 oz loads for a number of reasons. Recoil is one as they are more pleasant to shoot, especially when shooting 100 clays. When hunting I use either a 12 ga B&P 1 oz High Pheasant load in my older doubles or a 1 oz factory load like AA in a newer 20 sxs. The only competition I enter is the Medford SxS Classic and I am pretty realistic about my performance, so most of my shooting is for fun although I always want to do my best. When I am on, the 7/8 oz loads I use crush birds so I don't feel I would gain much from a heavier load. A big part of using that load though is trying to preserve guns that are 100 plus years old. Years ago I used a newer Webley and Scott finished off by Dickson and shot 5,000 rounds a year for several years without any issues. I succumbed to a prettier face and switched to a sidelock and have had more issues, primarily mainspring breaks, when used in cold weather I might add. I try to learn from experience but wanted to hear others views and experience. I appreciate those that answered within my parameters.


This ain't a dress rehearsal
1 member likes this: Imperdix
Joined: Jan 2021
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Joined: Jan 2021
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For what it's worth (and given my knowledge and experience, it's likely not worth much) I regularly use an Ithaca-made LeFever Nitro Special for clays and hunting both. I'm a firm believer that you should "train how you fight" with the "fight" in this case being upland hunting. It's a boxlock (very similar to an A&D setup) which I purchased well used from an auction about 3 years ago. It performs extremely well and I have yet to see any signs of wear on it. It's a basic mass-produced US SxS. It's not pretty, it's utilitarian for sure, but it'll break clays and put down birds just as well as anything else. I'd be very hard-pressed to put a fancier or finer gun into service for clays and clays alone unless I was competing.

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I believe that volume shooting in good guns is a non existent problem for most of us. Most of us spread our shooting over our extensive collections. Most of us are of fairly advanced age. I hardly know anyone in my group of shooting friends who could wear out one of their guns before they give up shooting, much less all of their guns. Even as a competitive shooter who was on the field four or more days a week, I always shot more than one gun. I'm just not worried about breaking a sidelock. A broken spring or whatever can happen on lightly used guns as well as hard working guns. I don't like searching for a gunsmith to fix a good gun, but it's part of the game.

1 member likes this: Hammergun
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