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damascus #590511 01/22/21 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by damascus
I have been told that Krupp barrels where sold here in Brit land under the name of 'Siemens Steel."

I don't believe that Siemens ever operated any steel mills. They were, and still are, a German engineering corporation, and they were involved in the development of the Siemens-Martin Open Hearth steel process. This process was used in Krupp steel mills.

But all this talk about Krupp and Siemens is likely to raise the ire of our two dedicated Nazi Hunters, Bob Cash and Sissy Chrissy nca225. ed's idea of collecting guns with Krupp barrels may get him branded as a Nazi collaborator, and a war criminal.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

damascus #590512 01/22/21 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by damascus
I have been told that Krupp barrels where sold here in Brit land under the name of 'Siemens Steel."

I don't think this is right.

1. There was a steel making process called Siemens-Martin, which came out after Bessemer, but before Krupp. Also, Siemens-Martin was of English origin, I believe.
2. Siemens (the German conglomerate) was not connected to Krupp as far as I know. So it would have been an odd (and litigiously questionable) name to use.

NDG

ed good #590515 01/22/21 03:44 PM
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My Siemens "cut & paste" research wink

William Siemens established the “Sample Steelworks” to develop the Siemens-Martin “Open Hearth” process in 1865, and his steel was in general industrial use 1870 - 1875.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_Siemens

Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute
https://books.google.com/books?id=xsc-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA52&lpg

The first commercially successful “Open Hearth” furnace was established in the U.S. by a Siemens’ employee, Samuel Wellman at the Bay State Iron Co. in 1870.
https://books.google.com/books?id=9VZHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA29&lpg

The Industrial Revolution in America: Iron and Steel
https://books.google.com/books?id=fUIbzBymAjIC&pg=PA79&lpg

The National Armory in Springfield began using Siemens-Martin steel for small arms about 1878.

P. Webley & Son began using Siemens steel barrels about 1880 and reported excellent results.

John Henry Walsh, The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle: Including Game and Wildfowl Guns, Sporting and Match Rifles, and Revolvers, Volume 1, 1882
“Siemen’s Steel for Gun Barrels”
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA445&vq
A 13 bore Siemens barrel did not bulge until 19 1/4 Dram Black Powder with a 1 1/4 oz. ball. Siemens then reported a tensile strength of 55,000 - 60,000; other sources list 62,700 psi.

Shooting, Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Gerald Lascelles, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Simon Fraser Lovat, Charles Lennox Kerr, 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4BnAFIC
‘Siemens’ steel barrels are fairly good and very trustworthy for cheap weapons, but the best now manufactured are known as ‘Whitworth fluid compressed steel,’ and are of excellent quality, though considerably more costly than are the ‘Siemens.’

W.W. Greener however was not impressed, writing in Modern Shotguns in 1888, “The Bursting Strain of Gun Barrels”
The best solid steel barrels are the “fluid compressed steel” tubes manufactured by Sir Joseph Whitworth's Company. They are very expensive, of uniform good quality, and although they are not, in the author's opinion, equal to best twist barrels, he is very pleased to use them at the request of any sports man requiring them. Siemens' steel and several other varieties drilled from the solid drawn into tubes in the rolling mill, are offered at a less price than the Whitworth barrels, and are often inferior in quality.

William Evans stated he preferred Siemens barrels in his 1893 catalog.

“Steel Gun Barrel Gaining In Public Favor”
March 12, 1898 Sporting Life
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/44565
Steel gun barrels have gained in public favor very rapidly in the last few years, and seem to be driving the figured barrels to the limbo of forgotten necessities just as surely and as certainly as Nitro powers have driven our old black and smoky friend to the some place. Figured barrels never have been made, and from the great number of weldings that are necessary to make a barrel, probably never can be made, as perfect as can a steel barrel. Many of the figured barrels, damascus, laminated or twist, show defects in the welding before they are submitted to proof, others fail while being proved, others show the defects of welding while being finished and browned, while still others show defects after being used for a short time. Of course, all steel Barrels are not perfect, and very few may be considered so except the Whitworth fluid compressed steel barrels. As the Whitworths are about the only people who make barrels from their own steel they have an interest and pride in the perfection of their own barrels.
The Seimens-Martin steel is first-class beyond a doubt, but they do not. forge barrels; they only make the steel. Give a dozen different barrel forgers each a piece of the same quality of steel and let each one forge a barrel, and the result will be, probably, a dozen barrels of as many different grades. During the process of forging some of the workmen may over heat the metal, while others may not heat it enough; in either, case an imperfect barrel may be the result. Seimens-Martin steel, like other steels for gun barrels, is made of several grades or qualities, consequently Seimens-Martin barrels, like other steel barrels, except the Whitworth, which is only made of the highest quality, are made of various grades- or qualities. If the metal is overheated while the barrels are being forged the chemical union between the carbon and the iron will be destroyed-to a certain extent, and if the metal has not been heated sufficiently it will be over strained and weakened during the process of forging, and imperfect barrels will be the result in either case. The quality of the barrels depends very materially on the intelligence of the workman and the perfection of the appliances at hand. The cheaper grades of steel barrels are of considerably better quality than they were a few years ago. and that they will be improved in quality as time passes may reasonably be expected.

It was reported in “Machine-tool Trade in Belgium”, United States. Dept. of Commerce and Labor, 1909 that the Pieper works in Liege only used German Siemens-Martin steel
https://books.google.com/books?id=3nBKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA90&lpg

Laurent Lochet-Habran, Liege was licensed to produce Siemens-Martin Acier Special in the 1930s.

1930 lettre annale

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

1935 Kaufmann Freres double rifle; 'MSA' Martin Siemens Acier / Siemens-Martin tubes by L. Lochet-Habran, barrels by Jean Falla Ateliers (1931-1953)

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Buturlin cited studies conducted at TOZ (Tula Arms Plant) likely immediately before WWI listing Russian Siemens-Martin tensile strength as 85,300 – 92,400 psi.

Multiple products were no doubt offered based on the intended application.

Pre-WWI Siemens may have been similar to AISI 1021 - 1034 Carbon Steels.
The Sampling and Chemical Analysis of Iron and Steel, 1915
http://books.google.com/books?id=03w6AAAAMAAJ&dq

ed good #590516 01/22/21 03:45 PM
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At least one Remington EEO had Krupp barrels.

ed good #590517 01/22/21 04:04 PM
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To add one additional note to Syracuse Arms use of Krupp barrels, Krupp barrels were optional on Grades A, A-1, B, and C (Damascus barrels were standard); while the highest Grade D featured Damascus or optional Whitworth steel). Krupp barrels seemed to be a popular choice for the Grade A and the seldom seen A-1 models, as about half of those models recorded featured Krupp barrels. One of the three C Grade guns recorded to date had Krupp barrels; but to date I've not recorded a single Grade B gun with Krupp barrels. Syracuse apparently made a special run, or filled a special order for Grade 3 guns with Krupp barrels as I've recorded two examples.

ed good #590523 01/22/21 07:37 PM
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Tobin.

ed good #590537 01/23/21 07:34 AM
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Just to make things clear there where two Siemens companies working up to the great war. Siemens AG fully Germany owned by the Siemens family, then there was Siemens here in Brit land a true British company owned by William Siemens who became a British Citizen also made Sir William Siemens just before his death and given a plaque in Westminster Abby. So the Siemens name here was at this time not thought of as a German company though at the beginning of the great war the Brit government sequestered all of the Siemens manufacturing plants taking them into state ownership. I did work for Siemens at a time when Siemens AG decided to re obtain some of the parts and trade names of William, such as "Osram" and parts of the old GEC empire including the Alstom Works at Stafford one of Williams largest factory sites that still had the major road maned Siemens drive after all this time.


The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
ed good #590539 01/23/21 08:45 AM
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Are Krupp barrels still being made ? Or is there new old stock around. I have seen new Galazan Fox guns with Krupp barrels. Are they real or just engraved with the Krupp name ?

terc #590545 01/23/21 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by terc
Are Krupp barrels still being made ? Or is there new old stock around. I have seen new Galazan Fox guns with Krupp barrels. Are they real or just engraved with the Krupp name ?

Really?!?! That is a big surprise. I dont think Thysson-Krupp makes them, but maybe someone else does acknowledging the patent?????

They don't say Essen, do they?

NDG

damascus #590549 01/23/21 11:20 AM
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I have a Greener Monarch Imperial in 16 gauge. It came originally from the factory with one set of Siemens barrels and one set of Whitworth barrels. At the time the gun was a highest grade at 70 guineas.

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