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ed good #590562 01/23/21 12:29 PM
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ed good Offline OP
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your greener sounds wonderful...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Baker made some models with Krupp barrels --


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Researcher, good catalog cuts. Baker seemed to drop and add grades often. It seems the dropped grade might reappear as another grade sometimes. As far as Krupp barrels on a Baker I have seen them on Paragons, L Grades, R Grades, and even S Grades where the Krupp name was overstamped as another steel type of lower grade. Krupp barrels appeared on the single barrel traps, Baker Ejector, and probably others that I am forgetting at the moment.

topgun #590578 01/23/21 03:36 PM
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My Royal Gun Company (Hollenbeck/LeFever), SBT Ejector, mfg 1908.
Stamped behind forend lug: FLUSS-STAHL-KRUPP-ESSEN.

John

ed good #590579 01/23/21 04:34 PM
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I am aware of two german drillings with Krupp BBls.
1 L. Rausch ca. 1907 labeled Flusstahl Krupp Essen
2 Aug. Jung ca. 1936 labeled Krupp stahl Primo
I think drillings frequently used Krupp Barrels

ed good #590586 01/23/21 07:52 PM
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I dont know if we're ever really going to know the true history of domestic fluid steel. I chased some of this down some time ago and it was a honey comb of dead ends. Basically, there ar several circumstantial things which in their totality are 'suggestive'...

1. It's known that Krupp (I forget which patriarch) came to the U.S. for the 1893 Chicago Fair, and that he met with American steel execs on that trip.

2. Shortly after this time 1 or 2 American companies (Bethleham was one) began offering improved fluid steel for railroad rails.

3. Not long thereafter several new 'trade names' of fluid steel began to be marketed by American gun companies.

4. This accelerated greatly after the outbreak of WW1.

So what can we make of this? Well, we know the importation of steel would have been highly regulated.
So...was did Krupp license their process to U.S. (and others?) companies, settling on making SOME money rather than suffer defending their patents internationally?

Did American (and others) essentially ramp up producing Krupp recipe steel after WW1 outbreak in violation of Krupp's patents, because they were a war enemy?

Any of of this is possible, but Im only speculating. I would definitely like to know the compositional differences between Krupp and LC Smith "Armor" steel, or Remington "Ordnance" steel, Lefever "Imperial" steel, etc.

They all came out in a similar time frame. Were they Krupp recipe sourced elsewhere, unatributed, because the Krupp's were kraut collaborators? Who the heck knows.

I gave up looking. What cant be denied is Krupp made damn good steel, but that their war time efforts in WW1 and WW2 give them a dubious place in history.

I own an E grade lefever with Krupp barrels...it is fantastic.

NDG

ed good #590595 01/23/21 08:45 PM
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Interesting and relevant thread from 2009 with lots of contributions from Raimey
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Board=1&main=13559&type=thread

As mentioned, Krupp marked tubes stamped “Acier Cockerill” or with the “LLH” of Laurent Lochet-Habran are commonly found on Belgian doubles.

And we know that the vast majority of "rough forged tubes" used by U.S. double gun makers were sourced in Belgian.

We also know Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel were licensed to manufacture Krupp steel plate in 1897; New York Times Nov. 7th, 1897
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A00E5DA123CE433A25754C0A9679D94669ED7CF

But I am not aware of evidence that either made Krupp licensed shotgun barrel steel.

Winchester, Remington and Stevens did use domestically produced barrel steel.

Send me a chunk of your Lefever Krupp barrel and I'll take it over to METL for composition analysis wink

Dennis Potter sent me a sample of Krupp for the tensile testing study but the source and age was unknown so I didn't think composition analysis would be meaningful. The tensile strength was 113,000 psi.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Scroll down almost to the bottom here and there is a little information about Krupp composition, mostly from the 2009 thread
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

ed good #590610 01/23/21 10:08 PM
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Yes, Ive seen that NY Times article too Drew. I also have a reference book about turn of the century int'l trade which talks a lot about steel.

I didnt mean to infer that those U.S. steelmakers were making barrels (although clearly they COULD have). I should have clarified...I mentioned it to say that clearly Krupp was licencing their method, and if they did so in Belgium as well, then it would suggest that maybe quite a few "makes" of fluid steel were actually Krupp recipe.

This would only have accelerated after the outbreak of WW1, when nobody felt the need to pay for it anymore..."wartime spoils," as it were.

I wonder if by the end of WW1 "Krupp steel" had essentially just become the standard recipe for fluid barrel steel.

Sort of the way the Mauser action was so thoroughly "borrowed" until it simply became rebranded as "bolt action." Pity poor ole Paul Mauser...but nobody's crying tears for Krupp.

NDG

ed good #590627 01/24/21 10:21 AM
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Guns of the highest grade would be where you would find "Krupp Special" steel barrels. I can think of only one, a Lefever Crossbolt in Optimus grade. Their 1901 or 1902 catalog offered this steel on the Optimus. Krupp Special Steel was a large step up from Krupp Steel.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Dennis Potter sent me a sample of Krupp for the tensile testing study but the source and age was unknown so I didn't think composition analysis would be meaningful. The tensile strength was 113,000 psi.

Composition analysis of a single sample of steel is only meaningful for that one particular heat (or batch) of steel.

There still seems to be a lot of confusion about this matter here. Steel is not an element. It is an alloy, or more accurately, a term to describe a very wide range of different alloys of iron and other elements. It is like trying to describe bread without differentiating all of the different varieties and recipes and methods for baking bread. Even two different batches of bread, using the same ingredients and baked by the same cook, can have a slightly different taste and texture. And because of the wider range of purity in the ingredients making up any particular heat of steel, it is far more difficult to replicate the composition of different heats of steel than it is for a baker making different batches of bread.

Pre-WWII Krupp steel mills mainly utilized Bessemer and Siemens-Martin processes. The Siemens-Martin Open Hearth process was slower than Bessemer Converters, but more controllable. What made their steel famous and highly regarded was mostly the same things that gave Eskiltunas, Solingen, Bohler and others their own stellar reputations. And that is the quality and purity of their ingredients, the recipe or composition, the process used to make it, and the attention to details like time, temperature, degassing, removal of impurities, etc. Even the composition of the fire-brick used to line the furnaces can affect the quality and final product. All of that is a function of the men who make it and the management who decide to invest in better materials and processes. So like baking bread, two different Melters (The guy in charge of the furnace operations) using the same ingredients and the same recipe in the same oven can and do have slightly different outcomes.

Even the same Melter producing consecutive heats of the same product order can have a different outcome. For example, if a heat calls for 20 tons of automotive scrap, some of those scrap cars may contain contaminants such as lead, copper, or other unseen materials that can affect the final product, or even cause an entire heat to be discarded or utilized for something else than what the customer wanted. There are radiation detectors in steel mills to detect radioactive scrap which could contaminate an entire heat. At the integrated steel mill where I once worked, I saw them opening baled scrap cars with dynamite because they noticed an increase in slag production from the L-D BOF and Electric Furnace operations They found that a scrap dealer was filling up cars with broken cement, drywall gypsum, and other garbage before baling to increase weight. This is why quality steelmakers have their own in-house Met Labs to test every heat during the melt, and after the heat is poured, hot rolled, cold rolled, pickled, annealed, and processed. Crappy steelmakers such as found in China and Taiwan are not as concerned with the composition and attention to detail or testing.

The steel Krupp marketed to gun makers for shotgun barrels is probably quite different than Krupp steel intended for railroad rails, ship hulls, or structural I-beams. It is possible, and even likely, that different barrel makers who used Krupp steel utilized different grades of Krupp fluid steel, and it isn't all the same stuff. And when we see "Siemens-Martin Steel" on a set of shotgun barrels, that does not mean those tube or the steel used to produce them came from some Siemens-Martin Steel Mill... rather, it means they were produced by some mill that utilized the Siemens-Martin Open Hearth process. Because of that, metallurgical testing of a set of barrels stamped "Siemens-Martin" may tell us almost nothing about another set with the same mark. It is merely a marketing term to tell us how it was made, but not who made it, what ingredients it contains, or ultimate strength or purity.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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