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campero Offline OP
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Jonny Carter talks with Gregg Elliott about this:

Are 'British guns better than American guns?

Regards!


28 ga, hammerguns and all shotguns and rifles made by hands.
Waidmannsheil 🌿📯
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I listened to that yesterday. I felt myself being somewhat frustrated. Was heavy into the mystique of English best guns having "that" feel. But, high grade American guns could also be made to order. That wasn't addressed very well as to handling and feel. They did give CSMC high grade guns some kudos in the last minute or so.

Of course all my life I have accepted as truth that British best guns are the ultimate in shot gunning. Guess I'll never know personally considering their cost. I do wonder if I could tell the difference between a British best and say the best efforts from makers such as Francotte, Piotti, etc. They did opine that provential makers could get you to 90% of the feel for less cost. I wonder if those guns were stamped H&H if they could tell the difference. I like shooting my CSMC Fox very much.

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Having handled many hundreds of British built guns,I`d say it`s all a matter of diminishing returns as you go up the price scale tbh.Whether the end user appreciates the extra at the top of the scale is another matter too.There are many top quality Provincial guns around to prove this and as you say if a different name was on them ,they may be judged differently!!!! Other countries have undoubtedly made fine guns too,although perhaps in lesser quantity I`d say .Buy a good quality Spanish or Italian gun and you get something that`s a reasonable substitute handling wise at least for a lot less money.

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jp sauer...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Campero, thanks for posting!

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John often has an interesting viewpoint but I always consider his experiences as a limiting factor in his views. Mostly clay targets and a bit of bird shooting from what always seems like a static position. That against much more walk up hunting we tend to do. We end up needing a gun for close or far and capable of shooting much heavier loads. If I knew every shot was going to be at 30-35 yard, overhead birds, I could learn how to use light loads like the he favors. But walk up hunting often gives you 35+ yard shots at bird, not presenting good consistent shots. It takes a lot more energy to kill a going away pheasant than one coming right at you.

Feel is such a subjective thing. One mans light and nimble is another mans worthless wand which he struggles to shoot well. Quality is something that is a bit less hard to evaluate but every maker would deliver as nice a gun as the buyer was willing to pay for. If you have ever seen a Lefever
Optimus you know what I am talking about.

But I do think we Americans have never been as fussed about our guns as our British cousins. Perhaps because we always could freely buy and use them where it was more restricted in use over there. If I can buy a fleet of cars I might not be that picky about anyone of them. They are just a way to get around. But if I could only have one it becomes a bit of a status symbol so extreme quality might carry more weight. We like durable while they like style. Try putting 50,000 rounds through a well maintained Parker and it’s British equivalent. See which one makes it.

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It must be remembered that when most of the very best British shotguns were made there were no restrictions on ownership; just a 10 shilling license from the local Post Office as a Police certificate was not required until 1968 and that too cost 10 shillings and issued with little fuss unless you had criminal convictions. A lot of game here is shot walked up as not everyone (me included) can afford driven shooting. Oddly, a lot of the guns specifically made for driven shooting are heavier. British guns will vary considerably in quality and finish from the bottom end 'Game Keeper's' guns used as workaday tools to those at the top end for high volume driven shooting where some of those so privileged would perhaps put 30,000 shots through a gun in just one season. One Boss O/U used at the Proof House for testing cartridges was reputed to have fired over 1 million rounds before honourable retirement. Some British guns like the machine made BSA can be quite ugly in appearance as too a Ward 'Target' model gun. Like you say, it can be relative as I have a Winchester SX4 that handles very well which I use at work for vermin shooting. I hardly ever miss with that one but I still would go to my Holland for a gun that really does handle well. Lagopus…..

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Maybe a better point is what percentage of British or American guns were built as best guns? I think we built less than 5% as best guns here. Might be as low as 1%. Our lowest grade is about the game keeper level but built in truly large numbers. It’s the mid range guns that I think the Brits out built us. Both as lesser known makers, provincial makers or second or third quality guns. Also the British gun trade was a almost endless creator of improvement up until about WWI. Lefever was as well but most of the other may have ended up with only a few model changes from inception to end of production. In part that was because we picked the most successful designs to copy, not invent.

Dynamics of a gun can be vastly difference and to some extent a personal choice. Quality in all but a small number of guns seems to be better in British guns. I’ve seen the inside of my British locks and my American locks. Fit and finish goes to the UK on internals.

John does make the observation right now you can buy extremely high condition major name double guns for about 20% of the cost to have them built today. And mid range guns are going for far less than that. Guns are scrapped because all but the most simple repairs are not economical. He went over a mid priced gun that needed a bit of tidying up. To do it on the cheap was 2K pounds and to do it right was 7-8K pounds. This in a gun which would sell for less than 2K if pristine. Sad truth is most doubles are going to sell cheap and suffer from lack of proper repairs. It is a buyers market.

So I give them credit for great guns but anything that is electrical, refrigerators, or daily driver cars goes to the US. Oh and dental care we win as well. Politicians are a bad draw with both sides wishing their own into their enemies. Rumor is Brits learn to enjoy warm beer because Lucas still makes all controls on what would be refrigeration if it ever worked.

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The question for me is not whether British bests are better than American bests. The more important question, for me, is what does it matter? The answer to that, for me, is "It doesn't, in the least". I have no use for a best gun, from either side of the pond. I am not a pure collector. I am a shooter, first and foremost. I have shot a Purdey belonging to my acquaintance Rob't. Matthews. It was gorgeous and handled nicely. It was after a S X S shoot several years ago at Brushy Creek, a now defunct sporting clays club. Bob offered it to me to shoot as much as I'd like. I took it to the last sporting clays station on the course, just up from the shed, and ran the station. I was impressed, but I drove away thinking that I had just won high overall score at the shoot with a BSS, which is worth a fraction of what the Purdey was worth .......... in dollars. And, this is just me, but I'd rather shoot well than have the prettiest gun there. I'm not saying both can't happen, but I've seen more winners shooting run of the mill guns than I have shooting best guns. I won't attempt to answer why, but I have my opinions.

I shoot a lot of different guns of my own at clays and at birds. I've been privileged to shoot many more very high end guns that belonged to others, like Bob's Purdey. And after doing so I cannot make myself believe that I could shoot higher scores with a British best, or kill doves at a higher percentage of bird to shots fired. If I really believed that I would sell all of what I've got and buy one. It is my opinion, and we all know what that's worth, that most of the demand in Britain for best guns was driven by a "keeping up with the Jones" attitude. When you have money to burn why not have that pride of ownership. Best guns did not make everyone who bought them a "best shot". A comment by a friend of mine after a closer friend won the S X S event, in a shoot-off against a gentleman shooting a Purdey, sums up my, and many other American's feelings, about this matter. My friend who won was using a Parker with the forend held on by electrical tape. Comment made was "You just have to admire a man who wins High Overall shooting a taped up Parker".

Another question I've always had was why, if they were built so flawlessly, did they need servicing and refreshing after every season? Sure, there were a few gunners who shot 30,000 rounds a year at game. But, how many? Enough to justify the nationwide practice? In the clay target games the K guns and the P guns are regarded as best guns in their "field".

I listened to the podcast linked above, and enjoyed it. I've got no problem with agreeing with the American Gregg Elliott's views about best guns. But in the end, it really doesn't matter a whit to me. America has plenty enough to be proud of in our past, without trying to prove the unprovable. Isn't it interesting that this old kettle got stirred up yet again, not by an American, but by an Englishman? Braggadocio....... or insecurity?


May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Hello everyone! I host the A Break in the Action podcast and was excited to see that my latest episode digging in the Jonny Carter's Youtube video got some good conversation going. Understand that I am 100% a hobbyist when it comes to podcasting. I just use it as an outlet to talk more about and learn more about my favorite topic - double-barrel shotguns.

If anyone has any kind critiques or suggestions I am happy to hear them.

Last edited by RDD; 03/02/21 05:52 PM.

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