June
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Who's Online Now
2 members (bushveld, LRF), 178 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics35,747
Posts503,027
Members14,044
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 17
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 17
Why isn’t anyone jumping on OWD?
I thought that was the norm.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,961
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,961
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Walter C. Snyder
An agreed upon definitive and objective criteria must be agreed upon first from each gun can be judged against. Otherwise it is just a pissing contest and a waste of time.

How about, assuming the same level of upkeep, British guns are best for hunting today, American guns are better for hunting in 50 years? smirk


My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,587
Likes: 36
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,587
Likes: 36
Originally Posted by Recoil Rob
British guns = Jaguar, American guns = Jeep
Having had 2 jeeps I would say the above is accurate but maybe not quite the way you see it. Replace the comma with the equal sign.
Jeeps are American Jaguars. wink
Maybe American Guns = Toyota. Gil

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,234
Likes: 16
In an attempt to establish objective criteria; how about "better" means what gun kills more birds or targets without mechanical failure over time, at a comparable price?

Henry Squires 1890 Catalog
Greener Facile Priceps No. 5 - $125
Greener Patent Treble Wedge-Fast No. 6 Far-killing Duck Gun - $100
Greener “Trap” Hammer gun - $85
Parker GH, Ithaca No.3, Colt & L.C. Smith No. 2 all $80

1895 Montgomery Ward & Co. Catalogue
Damascus Greener Facile Princeps “made especially to our order for trapshooting” - $100
Chas. Daly Hammerless No. 120 - $100
Smith Pigeon Grade without AE - $100
Greener No. 3 Ejector - $210
Parker DH - $100 list but sold for $72.

The 1903 H.H. Kiffe Co., New York
Lefever E Grade - $70
Remington 1894 C Grade - $70 + $5 AE
Ithaca No. 4 - $71 + $10 AE
L.C. Smith No. 3 - $75 + $10 AE
Parker GH - $80
W.&C. Scott No. 1 - $85
Greener No. 19 Forester - $100

It would be silly to compare any of the above with these
1906 William Read & Sons Catalogue
“Highest Quality” Westley Richards with single trigger - $595
W.W. Greener G70 “Imperial” - $500
W&C Scott “Premier” - $375
W&C Scott “Imperial Premier” - price on application
Purdey - 89 pounds 5 shillings sterling - about $446
Joseph Lang & Son “Highest Quality” sidelock ejector - 65 guineas
Parker Bros. AAHE - net price of $318.75
Lefever Optimus - $280
Remington Special - $750 = about $22,500 today
L.C. Smith Monogram AE - $365
L.C. Smith A-2 - $390
L.C. Smith A-3 - $740

Then there is "better" in actual competition ie. the 1901 Anglo-American Match
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw
Guns used: 9 Parkers, 2 Smiths and (oh the shame wink ) 2 Winchester Repeating Shotguns
The English guns were allowed 2 shots to compensate for 1/8 oz. less shot
Forest & Stream July 6, 1901
https://books.google.com/books?id=qkMhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA18
English cartridge: 1 1/8 oz., 3 Dram, No. 7 shot, 382 pellets in 2 3/4” case
American cartridge: 1 1/4 oz., 44 grains (3 1/8 Dr. Eq. “E.C.” No. 1), No. 7 1/2, 436 pellets in 3 1/4” or 3 1/2” case.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 17
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 17
It’s the difference between drinking from a coffee mug and fine crystal.
Each have their place.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,961
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,961
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Drew Hause
In an attempt to establish objective criteria; how about "better" means what gun kills more birds or targets without mechanical failure over time, at a comparable price?


Hmmm...guns don't kill birds, shooters do. A better metric would be, with all guns firing the same load, which fires the most shells without mechanical failure.

But that's just the American side of things, for the British side we'd have to get into handling, MOI, and aesthetics.

Last edited by Recoil Rob; 03/03/21 07:29 PM.

My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,847
Likes: 24
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,847
Likes: 24
Just get some of each.

I'm a Ford man but I had a 67 RS/SS Camaro Convertible that I loved.

I'm a SxS man but I own pumps and O/U.

My favorite boat is a Condcordia yawl, but I love Donzi's.

I like Continental guns best but I also own English game guns and classic American SxS. Love them all.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 126
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 126
It’s an interesting question but a rather moot one. The guns which dominate at skeet, trap and clays at nearly every level, including the Olympics, are German (Krieghoff) and Italian (Perazzi and Beretta). I’ve owned each and have my preferences. And I know there are many other fine guns.

Realistically, very few of us truly need guns of that quality for the amateur competition, recreational shooting and hunting we enjoy. But it feels great knowing that I have the best tools available when I’m out there. And I can do that for a price that while expensive, keeps the guns within grasp

The same cannot be said for best British guns or for best American guns. Honestly, I’m not exactly sure what a best American gun is. I guess you could say it’s a high end A-10 American or Galazan best. But if we are talking modern guns, it’s something from CSMC. Most of those guns are well beyond the reach of the vast majority of shooters, as they should be or they wouldn’t be best guns. I’ve had the opportunity to visit both Purdey and H&H. It was a thrill. But the likelihood of ever owning one is extremely low. If I did own a Purdey sporter or a Galazan Boss action gun, would I break more clays or kill more birds than with a Beretta SO, Perazzi or Krieghoff? Probably not. Would I enjoy it anyway? Absolutely!

You max out on functionality at around $10K. The rest is for show. And that’s not a bad thing. I like to show off amazing craftsmanship for its own sake. Is British best craftsmanship better than American best craftsmanship? Probably a little bit really, it doesn’t matter. These are guns well beyond range for the vast majority of shooters and I’m fine with that. I will admire them for the items of beauty they are, and admire the men who created them.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,383
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,383
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
Why isn’t anyone jumping on OWD?
I thought that was the norm.

He lost a young Pointer not long ago. I wouldn’t wish the early death of a dog on an enemy, and he is certainly not that.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,914
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,914
There are only complicated answers to the questions put forward. The reason is that the shooter is, at minimum, 50% of any answer. Shooters are more individualistic than guns; make and model fairly well define a gun other than custom made.

Handling is defined by weight, teeter-totter balance, unmounted swing effort (MOI at balance), and mounted swing effort (MOI at butt). Post back if this subject is due further discussion. It is, by the way, an objective/fact based subject.

"Best" of any category of product has its foundation in the British/European system of trade made goods. The rich Victorians and Edwardians were nuts over "Best work" goods. It was well understood that "best" meant the highest quality/prestigious money could buy. This system "came a-tumblin' down" compliments of two world wars. "Best" is pretty well defined by best design, materials, workmanship, and aesthetics/fashion for the given time. Keep in mind that the last few % of quality is very disproportionately expensive. Each of the items in the foregoing factors had
a limited number of trade masters who had a limited amount of best material to work with. Post back if we need additional discussion on this subject.

The trade was made up of numerous shops/companies run by a master (usually) and each employing all the in-workers (employees) it could afford and out-workers (contractors) as needed. Companies expanded and contracted with the economy, prosperity, and fashion. Reputations rose and fell as they usually do with time and changing management. Additional discussion?

Since we discuss mainly used guns we can take a quick look at values. Brit and Continental guns can be reasonably accurately valued by using the Brand Value level (BV), Original Quality grade(OQ), and Current Condition(CC) and a look-up table based on past auction hammer price results. Questions?

OK, there is an outline of info that may or may not be useful to some of you.

Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u9 Page Time: 0.055s Queries: 35 (0.016s) Memory: 0.8575 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-06-23 17:11:34 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS