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Argo44 Offline OP
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Flint, I should have said, "I 'hoped' this might be an original center-break SxS Reilly 4 bore." So my bad. At least I got the truth out of the auction house to make up for it.

I wasn't around 10 years ago. When I first began compiling the list of extant Reilly's, 15625 at the time was the earliest serial number with 2 rue Scribe on it. It was originally a pin-fire. So I did read the line in December 2015. I should have paid more attention but at the time did not know the players here. Also, the dialog was so contentious that really I just abandoned reading it after I got the details of the gun. I always wondered, though, why it was so difficult for George L. to post the weight of a gun.


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Stanton- I spoke with Jim Kelly and another person working in his shop last year, and he / they had no record and no recollection of another gun that came from this same collection said to have been worked on by Jim Kelly. I wrote about this above.
If a gunsmith noted the thin barrels and chambers to the owner, and that warning was not conveyed with the gun, then there are all kinds of ethical and professional issues swirling about here. This all seems obvious.


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Looking more closely at the online photos of this gun, the extractor and surrounding metal is heavily pitted. Yet the chambers and bores are like new. This points to a very recent re-bore, probably because the original 8-bore bores looked like the extractor, all pitted. Which made the gun a lot less attractive. None of this is disclosed or even hinted at in the auction description. Buyer beware. What a lesson


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Ten years later and this gun still generates a lot of “discussion “. Jim Kelly was given a task of repairing or stabilization on a gun with rather major condition problems. If it were a common 12 bore, of any maker, I suspect he would have declined the job. He did a good job of making the gun presentable. It is a interesting gun. It would be so even as a 8 bore. History should not be lost just because it got damaged by use or neglect but should be enjoyed. I’d love to own that gun just for display purposes. I am not shooting it and for that matter what game could I shoot it at today. Maybe a turkey in a few states. Overkill for that or any other clay target.

I doubt George every had any serious interest in shooting it with anything greater than blanks. His selling price was a pie in the sky, attention getting, price as far as I was concerned. I think it was removed from sale listing because George knew the price was not ever going to be made and close inspection would diminish this gun interest because it was a much altered gun in rough condition.

In some ways this gun reminds me of a Lefever Optimus that surfaced about a decade ago. It was thought to be a true basket case. One buyer took a chance and bought it. After more than a bit of work it was brought back to acceptable condition for light use. And as he pointed out he owned a shootable Optimus while most wanting one will never get the chance own either one for display or to shoot. It was a nice looking gun, in better display condition than this.

As to what Jim said about it, we can’t know but I am certain he did not say shoot it with full loads because it is as good as new. I would expect him to remember this gun but he might not want to discuss what he said to the owner because that conversation was between them and not the entire world. Some here are thinking a condition report once given should be free for the entire world to see. Does not work that way. You pay Diggory for one you think the next person asking him will be told ask Jon or be given it for free? Information has value.

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Every gun like this that has a condition report is sold with the report. Unless the report contains information damaging to the seller’s goal of moving something inferior under cover of deception or darkness.
If people here know Jim Kelly so well, they should call him up and report back here.
My bet is this is not a good shootable gun, no more than a wall hanger, and yet it is being hawked right now as a “rare 4-bore,” which it ain’t. It started life as either a 7 or 8 bore, and was rebored in recent years to eliminate a pitted bore and possibly to make it an even more rare bore size. Without any disclosure now. Nothing “oh golly, guess I missed that” going on here.
“C’mon, man.”
This kind of deception should not be facilitated or covered up.


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Argo44 Offline OP
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For history sake and for future of the gun with whomever buys it, someone here should call Jim Kelly. And it would be nice if one of the S.C. members could go over the Charlton and take a closer look at the gun. I'm sure the auction house will respond quickly to whatever request is made of them. It's just that I didn't think of going directly to them until last week.

And it is an unusual gun. I date it now to 1869 - firmly - now 152 years old. Originally a pin-fire and probably originally an 8 bore with good engraving (SKB turned out to be dead on and I really think its closest contemporaries are the two Reilly 8 bores I pictured above). Shame it's been reamed out this way.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/01/21 11:12 AM.

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Any insight into the safeties on a shotgun? Normally only see them on rifles!

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Originally Posted by Imperdix
Any insight into the safeties on a shotgun? Normally only see them on rifles!
It was a rifle, is now a shotgun after being reamed out from 8 to 4 gauge. It sold for $7,500 a couple hours ago. I took some screen shots of the Charlton Hall page because there’s a chance the new owner will object to a description missing the crucial word “re-bored,” and the inclusion of false descriptors like “rare four-bore.” This happened two years ago with a Charles Lancaster double rifle that the same seller failed to disclose a bunch of flaws about. The happy new owner returned it to Charlton Hall for a refund in order to become happy again. Anyhow. Onward


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Argo44 Offline OP
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I really don't think it was a rifle PM. I think it was an 8 bore shotgun. Barrels are too long to have been a rifle and weight is off. If it were an 8 bore rifle, weight would be up near 16 lbs.

Example: SN 22068, 8 bore Rifle sold on a French site. Barrels are on 28" chambers 3" Weight is 7.8 kilos = 17 lbs 3 oz
http://www.piasa.auction.fr/_en/lot...elephant-a-percussion-79041#.Vr0MznhQoqY
8 Bore Reilly
Carabine double pour la chasse à l'éléphant à percussion centrale par Reilly à Londres et Paris,
à deux canons en table en damas étoilé mis en couleur tabac avec large bande de visée antireflet gravée E.M. Reilly & Co New Oxford St London & Rue Scribe a Paris, avec hausse fixe et quatre feuillets gradués jusqu'à 200 mètres, épreuves de Londres sous les tonnerres, extracteur (Long. : 70 cm, cal. 8, poudre noire, chambré 80 mm, poids : 4 725 g). Platines “arrière” jaspées à chien extérieur avec sûreté bleuie au demi-cran d'armé et signées E.M. Reilly & Co. Bascule avec clé anglaise. Crosse pistolet en noyer quadrillé (Long. : 37 cm), bride de renfort, pontet bronzé noir gravé du numéro de série 22068, plaque de couche en fer, longuesse quadrillée avec embout en corne.
Long. : 114 cm - Poids : 7 800 g environ.

Here is a Reilly 4 bore wildfowler 18860, with stalking safeties. It apparently was proofed as a 6 bore and has 4" chambers which Donald Dallas says should not exist on a 19th century UK shotgun.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/1363-396/
Morphy has disabled all previous jamesjulia info on the web unfortunately. but the description of 18860 is interesting - i.e. proofed for 6 bore black powder:
MASSIVE FOUR BORE E. M. REILLY HAMMER WATERFOWLING SHOTGUN IN HIGH ORIGINAL CONDITION.
SN 18860. Cal. 4 bore. 4” Chambers. 42” Dovetailed stub Damascus bbls are engraved “E. M. Reilly & Co Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris.” on relatively narrow concave top rib. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with London black powder proofs for 6 bore and with SNs. Large nickel-plated Jones underlever action with non-rebounding peninsula back locks have round bodied serpentine hammers and back sliding safeties. Locks have four positions; fired, 8th cock, half cock, and full cock. Safeties engage at 8th cock. Action and locks are completely unadorned except for makers name on the tail of each lock. SN is on trigger guard tang. Lightly streaked and figured European walnut straight grip buttstock measures 14-3/8” over nickel-plated buttplate, and has classic point pattern checkering with mullered borders at grip, and a vacant silver oval on toe line. Matching splinter forend has shaped steel tip, and attaches to bbls with sliding side bolt through oval escutcheons. It appears this gun was made before chokes were invented. Diameter at muzzles is .952. Drop at heel: 2”, drop at comb: 1-13/16”. Weight: 18 lbs. 12 oz. LOP: 14-3/8”. CONDITION: Excellent, very close to new. Bbls retain nearly all of their Damascus brown with only slight silvering at muzzles, and some overall flecking. All other major metal parts retain nearly all of their orig heavy nickel plating, with only a few scattered knocks and a small bit of peeling at toe of buttplate. Action and trigger guard screws retain most of their orig case hardening color. Minor pins and safeties retain most of their orig fire blue. Stocks have nearly all of their orig hand rubbed oil finish with scattered marks and scratches, checkering very lightly worn and dark. Mechanically excellent, but triggers and locks are somewhat sluggish due to congealed oil. Bores are excellent, with some light scratches. Action is tight. Waterfowlers such as this are seldom found in this condition, because they are usually heavily used in salty environments. A superb condition example like this is a great rarity. 51401-5 MGM170 (20,000-40,000)

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 04/01/21 04:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by pamtnman
Stanton- I spoke with Jim Kelly and another person working in his shop last year, and he / they had no record and no recollection of another gun that came from this same collection said to have been worked on by Jim Kelly. I wrote about this above.
If a gunsmith noted the thin barrels and chambers to the owner, and that warning was not conveyed with the gun, then there are all kinds of ethical and professional issues swirling about here. This all seems obvious.

If, that's the key word in your sentence. What you've done is make assumptions and post conjecture. You don't know if Jim commented or not to George about the shootable condition, and if he did you don't know what George's reply may have been. Again, it's all conjecture.

Originally Posted by pamtnman
If people here know Jim Kelly so well, they should call him up and report back here.

Why put it on somebody else? You call him, again. You're the one with your panties in a wad over it. You insinuated you were through with the thread five posts ago, but you can't leave it alone. Whatever. I could care less about this whole affair, including the Reilly. I only posted to stand up for my friend Jim Kelly. That's my only intent.

Rave on. I'm through with the matter and I assure you I won't be back.

Stan


"With one foot in the grave ..........and one foot on the pedal, I was born a Rebel" T.P.
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