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Almost forgot this- I have fished in Wyoming, when Mae and I and our youngest daughter visited Yellowstone, 2 summers after the 1998 fires that raged there- One early evening, on the Firehole, a cub reporter from the Gazette came upon me casting and asked if he could snap some fotos-"Sure, I said"-- I was fishing my favorite 6 wt. rod- a Merrick-Stoner 8'6" one tip (took this same rod with Hardy Perfect reel up to the Bow River in Calgary 2 years before-I managed to catch and release 2 nice fish, on a Dave's hopper--when he asked me my name and where I lived, for the article in the paper, my 'smart ass" side came out- I told him my name was Bernie Schweinfurt, from Princeton NJ-- bingo!!!


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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If you want a really good gun cheap, look for an old Perazzi Comp-1 trap gun. They are the older type guns, but still really good guns and cheap for what they are. Still more than $700 though. I agree with the other guys, if $700 is the limit, go automatic.


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Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
One warning about later made Browning O/U(s). If they've had a lot of rounds through them they will soon need rebolting. I've seen way too many shooting with a rubber band around the wrist and top lever to help prevent it from partially opening on the first shot. And, I've known of many more than that that have been sent back to Browning for rebolting.

Flame away. Just reporting what I've seen over the last 20 years.

What are you doing making a statement like that?! Oh and don't forget the issue with the Browning lower firing pin for the last couple of decades. When do you suppose they will get that finally figured out? Been held up shooting in different venues by that and FTF than any all other guns. Combined.

Lloyd you couldn't have picked the worst time to wake and smell the coffee. Because of ammo and reloading components not being available. But don't give up, keep trying each and every gun you can. The TT-15 (it is not TT-115) turkish made Tristar, erh nicknamed the Bi-star on Trapshooters.com is not going to be the most reliable gun you can get. You don't have to get the best but you want something reliable. But more importantly something that fits you. Period. As mentioned the cost of the gun is nothing compared to the cost of ammo.

My youngest son 15 years ago was the Mn. ATA Class Runner Up at Alex with one of my B. Rizzini guns, we modified it for Trap. As mentioned the cost for registered ATA was ~$1 a round and is even more now. But you are shooting SC to have fun. Oh and welcome, about time laugh

Olaf does exist in real life. I have a picture of him.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Now that is a Duck Tower. At Horse and Hunt where they hold National SC shoots and FITASC. I shoot for fun and my friends do too. We are serious but having fun is the most important part of the game. And most of my friends shoot SxS guns.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

In addition to hard core target guns. But we download payloads for the lighter SxS guns on clays. Right now going to be hard for you to do that. Next Saturday going to start off my SC year by shooting with a friend that is coming down from Silver Bay, Mn. for his brothers funeral and shoot at Caribou. We will be shooting SxS guns. After buying the buggy for SC didn't leave much left over for SxS target guns and that is my lowly Winchester 23, but have been adding to the collection. REALLY fond of the Dickinson Sporting guns, which are made in Turkey by AKUS and have one each in 12 and 20.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

They work well. For me.

Take your time. Shoot every gun you can get your hands on. But most importantly have fun. Good luck, and take your time. And enjoy the journey.

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CI: I'm in it for the fun, period. And I don't doubt that the gun is the least expensive part of it. Appreciate the heads-up on the "Bi-Star", kind-of I figured that the low end guns would have lots of issues but... I love to find the rose in the thorns. That Dickenson looks like great fun! I should look into one of those too. Also, what is that long-barreled box lock in the 1st rack pix, 2nd from right? I'm guessing it has the weight to sop-up loads of punishment as well.

While I'm at it, what other sxs gun are popular with your buddies for clays? Anything big and solid with long tubes should fit the bill I suspect, as long as it fits the shooter as well. I'm normally not a single trigger guy but in this application I would think it should be perfect. And....big, heavy, 12 boxlocks are wayyyy out of style these days so that might be a great solution for me here.

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Lloyd the middle gun is a Winchester 21 that has been restored and restocked. The gun to the left of it is also a Win 21, first year that has also been restocked and restored. They are both 30" but the LOP on the middle gun is long. Those guns are spendy, very spendy!

My friends own and shoot pretty everything across the board out there. Most of us reload and download to lighter loads when using hunting guns for clays. To get into a target SxS at a reasonable price with a reliable gun I think it is hard to beat a 12 ga. BSS with 30" barrels. If they fit you. Some are non selective triggers but that is a non issue for me. One less thing to think about. As you mentioned the 12 ga. guns are usually heavier and demand is not as great as it is for sub gage guns.

Nothing wrong with a semi auto either as your main clays gun. In a SA wouldn't hesitate to get anything from a Tristar G2 up through Beretta A400. And the G2 is right where your initial price was. Especially if a person was used to a pump gun. To be honest seems like most people shoot a single barrel better than doubles, no matter which way they are stacked. As long as the gun fits you, that is key. Most shooters will be glad to let you try their gun out on a station if you ask them. Don't be afraid to ask!

With you being left handed it is even more critical if you can try before you buy. Most of the semiauto guns out there now have shims that you can adjust the gun for fit. Including fitting cast for a lefty. Just a thought.

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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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CI: I thought those two guns were 21s, but I just wasn't sure. Very nice! The BSS suggestion is an excellent one. Over the years I've seen (& sold) several large, long and heavy boxlocks with single triggers that I knew were well-made but just didn't fit my personal model for hunting (unless I was thinking about waterfowl). The non-tox situation sort-of obviated my interest in those guns over the years but I did admire the better made versions. I know the autos are very popular but....I just can't warm up to them. I'll either find a good intro stackbarrel or I'll find the appropriate boxlock to fit to my purposes.

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Lloyd, there's one that I forgot to mention, the Valmet. Same lockup at the Kreighoffs and Remingtons. There have been many of them made and sold, they were also in production under the name Tikka, and now, apparently, Marocchi. Machine made guns, but held to such close tolerances that barrels will often interchange with no need for fitting. I owned and shot a 412ST for years (32" barreled), but they're readily available in other barrel lengths. Very, very tough guns. My friend Charlie Boswell, who developed and founded the CompNChoke line of choke tubes shoots one exclusively at clays. He owns a Kreighoff, has owned a Perazzi, in fact just about every target O/U in existence. But, he shoots the Valmet better than any of them.

Evidently, a Marocchi 612 can be ordered with double triggers at the list price of $1500. I can't speak for the quality of the Marocchi, but the design is unquestionable in durability.


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Two friends shot Valmets for years, high volume. One shot the International Skeet circuit, did so well that Stoeger sent him a backup gun, free of charge. They didn't want my friend to break his gun at a shoot and not have a backup. I don't think he ever needed it.

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Is there any satisfaction in having a quality, left handed, target gun sitting in the safe, that you can’t afford to shoot as intended?

I can’t help but notice at our club, that the families that bring their kids out to enjoy breaking some clay targets, aren’t out there week-in and week-out. They come out with Hunter grade shotguns whenever they feel like they want to have a fun afternoon together.


Out there doing it best I can.
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CZ: Well, with the current ammo situation that is exactly what is holding me a bay, just a little bit. Truly the source my reticence so-far. Dedicating (relatively) big resources for a gun that can or will be only used sparingly just doesn't make a lot of sense at the moment. Easing into these waters carefully, more-so than normal. It's not like I don't have other options.

Stan: We had a Valmet or two in my time at MW Reynolds and they were very interesting units. That sliding hood over the breech, much like the Remington 32s (& the French design that Remington pilfered that I can't now-recall) is what I remember of them. Don't think I've ever seen a dedicated LH gun from them, but who knows?

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