December
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
2 members (cpa, 1 invisible), 135 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,372
Posts511,050
Members14,103
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
mc Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
I can't imagine a production jump like that without outside help .if a company could supply a finished product from plain Jane to best box lock why take th a risk and expand a profitable London business I know greener purchased Anson and deeley guns from brazier and for at least 10 years greener had the factory capable of producing a&d guns I think at one time they were the largest gun factory in England.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
And by the way..how can all those Reilly serial numbers be dated? It has to be magic....or maybe 4000 hours of research.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/21/21 08:27 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
mc Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
I think the idea was to discuss the probability of box lock guns made in London not just finished up in London from birmingham parts I don't know what dating Reilly guns has to do with that what's the point ? I think if you could prove that reillys added a substantial workforce at the time the London made box locks were supposed to be being built might help with your theory.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
mc, thanks for the comment. There are two substrings to this conversation:
-- Did a London gunmaker make A&D actions in and of themselves
-- Did a London gunmaker make guns based on A&D actions from Brum

I've addressed both arguments above.

And if you can't date a Reilly gun with an A&D action..then the whole argument is moot. Right?

And sir, (this really get tiresome) - please read the Reilly line. in 1881 per the UK census...Reilly employed more than twice the number of men than Greener and 5 times that of Purdey.

Or you could read these sections of the current history (It's all there on p. 54 of the Reilly line) (and youall thinking that auction houses endlessly repeating gun "history" is in any way unusual?):

------------history to be published -------------

1878-80: Situation of the Company

Reilly again exhibited at the 1878 Paris exposition and again won medals. By 1880 Reilly sold a third more - soon to be twice as many - serial numbered, hand made bespoke guns than both Holland and Holland and Purdey combined, this in addition to:
. . .-- a very active business in guns sold under license from well known gun makers including revolvers (Trantor, Baumont-Adams, Walker, Colt, etc), rook rifles, repeating rifles (Sharps, Winchester, etc.),
. . .-- as well as merchandising every type of gun accoutrement - reloaders, cartridges, shells, cases, etc.
. . .-- and sustaining a huge business in previously owned guns.

Reilly told the 1881 census taker that he employed some 300 people in his firm, an extraordinarialy high number for the times, an indication of the extent of his gun manufacturing and sales business. (WW Greener in the same census claimed to employ 140, less than half the number of Reilly; Purdey in 1871 said he employed 58, 1/5th the number of Reilly workers).

Reilly in the early 1880's

Reilly's business was booming and gun production topped 1000 a year. Reilly reportedly was making long guns for other London gun-makers. Note: there is a suspicion that with his large industrial spaces (by London terms) that he was doing this for many years - see the Reilly-Purdey kerfuffle from 1866. As an example,
. . .-- a James Beattie percussion gun made circa 1835 has been found with the locks labeled “Reilly,” a possible indication that Reilly made the gun in the white for Beattie, this in the very early years of Reilly making guns.
. . .-- In 1832 Reilly offer special deals for “country gun makers.”
. . .-- Wilkinson marketed at least on Green Bros Breech loader circa 1868; since Reilly was the sole manufacturer of the Green Bros patent, Reilly had to have made that gun for Wilkinson.

He also around this time allegedly (not confirmed) began importing cheap Belgian-made revolvers in parts which he assembled in his buildings, engraved and sold. (Reilly, like Trantor and others, possibly was involved with the Belgian manufacture and "assembly trade" much earlier...perhaps dating to as early as the 1850's).

He exhibited at the 1882 Calcutta fair (a British Empire only affair) and won a medal and was highly praised for his exhibit at the 1884/85 London International Expositions where he again won medals.

(Note there were three different international expositions in London in 1884-85; An exposition at Crystal Palace; the International Health Exposition of 1884; and the International Inventions Exposition of 1885. Reilly apparently won a gold medal at the Internation Health Exposition though why shotguns were exhibited there is unknown – he publicized the medals only as “London Exhibition 1884.” Reilly also won a silver medal at the International Inventions Exposition but did not publicize it; Reilly's exhibit at this exposition is described in Wyman.)

Reilly guns figured very well in live pigeon shooting contests throughout the 1880's. Reilly won the 1882 year-long Hurlingham manufacturers cup championship per the Holt's Shooting calendar and his pigeon guns from these early 1880 years were specifically built to match the Hurlingham weight limits.

Big game hunters in Africa used his guns and advertised the results including Henry Morton Stanley, the Welsh-American and perhaps the most famous of all African explorers, Dr. David Livingston, and noted Victorian era African hunter and author Frederick Selous. Sir Samuel Baker, the most famous Victorian hunter of all, of course, began using Reilly heavy rifles in the early 1850’s, had Reilly build explosive shells for him, and continued to use his Reilly connection to the end of his hunting life as previously mentioned.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/21/21 08:29 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
I guess I'm just getting old(er) but re-reading the above line is upsetting:'' I posted this about the first existing Reilly Boxlock - mid 1880:

-- SN 22482 (1880): The first surviving Reilly box-lock is SN 22482 (1880)

How in the heck does anybody know that Reilly 22482 was numbered in 1880? Except of course for the 4000 hours of research put in on the Reilly line?

(Or we could rely on what some gunsmith in Uk heard when he started working as a 14 year old apprentice in 1950).

Last edited by Argo44; 10/21/21 08:31 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 27
I also asked Donald Dallas and others whether there is a definitive way to identify a boxlock action made in Birmingham. No one so far has been able to respond other than..."there must be workers' initials on there someplace," or "that's what everybody knows or says."

So if there are no "workers initials" on a boxlock, that means it wasn't made in Birmingham? Does anyone else have an idea or comment...or can we now assume that boxlocks without initials were made in London? (And I'm being provocative but the issue needs to be addressed..."Birmingham made all the boxlock actions" is now so imbedded in "gun history" that it's hard to get to the bottom of the story)

Last edited by Argo44; 10/28/21 09:05 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 10,714
Likes: 58
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 10,714
Likes: 58
Originally Posted by Argo44
So if there are no "workers initials" on a boxlock, that means it wasn't made in Birmingham? Does anyone else have an idea or comment...or can we now assume that boxlocks without initials were made in London? (And I'm being provocative but the issue needs to be addressed..."Birmingham made all the boxlock actions" is now so imbedded in "gun history" that it's hard to get to the bottom of the story)

By that line of logic, we could also assume that E.M. Reilly did not manufacture any real quantity of firearms, because we have seen no photos of Reilly gunmakers or gun assembly workers, and there is also no London Census data showing anyone employed there in those jobs.

Originally Posted by LeFusil
Argo44, Reilly didn’t make boxlocks. Sorry. Didn’t happen. They didn’t make ANY modern breech loading guns. NONE.

Stop ruining threads with your unsolicited Reilly stuff. Seriously.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 190
Likes: 7
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 190
Likes: 7
`Birmingham made all the boxlock actions and most of the sidelocks too ` would be closer ! I think you have to remember that our interest takes us into a different world ie the past,and the trade did not operate in such a structured way as modern industry with its traceability .Work of individuals was perhaps identified by the way it was presented ,such as the way an action was filed to shape or parts of the mechanism were made etc.Those involved at the time would easily know who did what but perhaps had no interest in making it obvious at some point in the future .They were simply working to live and would produce product however the customer wanted it.
Bottom line is that there were few rules .HTh.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
mc Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,767
Likes: 55
Imperdix,I agree a task was given for finishing parts the task was completed ,get paid then move on to the next task if you were good and worked efficiently you stayed busy

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 12
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 12
I know almost nothing of British guns, but in the event this bit of information may add something to the conversation; I own a Fredrick T. Baker 12 bore with a Pall Mall, London address. It is a non-ejector box lock built on an Anson and Deeley action featuring Damascus barrels and very fine 100% engraving coverage. The Roman numerals in the engraving pattern date this gun to 1883, but I have no idea where the action may have been made; only that it has a London address and is high quality.

Page 7 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.047s Queries: 35 (0.023s) Memory: 0.8630 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-12-04 23:03:08 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS