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#605372 10/29/21 04:11 PM
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Vall Offline OP
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Not long ago I was contacted by a gentleman in New York asking if I was interested in purchasing his rolling Block rifle? I asked for pictures, and was surprised to see it was a pistol grip sporting rifle, so I asked for particulars on caliber, barrel length, and cartridge. The info sent back indicated this was certainly one of approximately maybe 300 Creedmoor rifles built!
The gun was missing all it's long-range sights, and it had also once had a "heel sight" mounted to the buttstock, and that too was missing the sight base there. But I was not going to let those sights stop me from purchasing such a rare gun, and seller assured me the bore was excellent! The deal was made, and soon I received the Remington Creedmoor.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I began looking for sights among my box of parts, and found a Remington sight base, and a complete windage globe front sight, with spirit level! But not the long-range vernier tang sight. I contacted Tony Maddox at The Original Sight Co. and Tony sent me an exacting copy he makes of this sight!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/GSMVBfYl.jpg?1[/img]

With the sights installed I began looking for components to load for this rifle. The bore was as advertised, in excellent minty condition. A chamber cast confirmed the .44-77 SBN caliber, and the gun came with 90 cases, so I mocked one up to check how far out a 535 gr. paper patch bullet would seat. These rifles were made to allow bullets to seat way out, so the 77 gr. case could be filled with 90 grs. of BP to shoot better at 1000 yds. This one is no exception, and bullet only sits .10" into the neck when I test fitted it. The cartridge on the left is my mockup .44-77-535 next to my .44-100 Ballard with the same bullet.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

During my investigation of these rifles I discovered serial numbers for two rifles used in the original 1874 Creedmoor Match were in the very low 3000 range. But my rifle is in the mid 1500 range, much earlier than those. Roy Marcot's book stated the Creedmoor rifles were not cataloged until 1874, but some prototypes were built the year before, so it appears this is a pre catalog prototype rifle!
The vast majority of Remington Creedmoor rifles were half octagon also, but there are three known to be full octagon, and two known to be full round. This rifle is the third full round now known.
I'm planning on shooting this rifle in our 1000 yd. BPCR matches, so working up BP loads currently. I've never fired black powder, but have a few great friends who are helping me prepare with plenty of advice, and even providing me some materials I need to get started. Hopefully once I get all the pieces together I'll start with some 100 yd. testing, and then work my way out to our 1000 yd. range, and see what this old girl will do!

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Vall Offline OP
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PS-Two oddities on this gun's barrel. One I figured out, but one eludes me?
There's a small dovetail in front of the front globe sight dovetail. That one turns out to be for a scale indicator so you can watch the globe sight movement, and see how far you've moved it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The other is a second dovetail over the chamber area, which I suspected was for a spirit level. But it's only a 1/8" dovetail, and seems very narrow, even for a spirit level?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I'm still puzzled, and have no clue for sure what it's for?

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Awesome rifles. For being so rare, I have seen quite a few over the years. I saw one last weekend at a match where a gunshow broke out. The gun show was almost entirely English Creedmoor rifles, but a spectator to the match brought a Remington Creedmoor to show off. it was a very nice rifle indeed. It's bore was excellent and it would be a great match rifle for the Creedmoor 150.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I don't know what those tiny dovetails could be for, but given there are two, perhaps they were for scope mounts - seems improbable, I admit, but I don't have a better idea.


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Originally Posted by BrentD
I don't know what those tiny dovetails could be for, but given there are two, perhaps they were for scope mounts - seems improbable, I admit, but I don't have a better idea.


As I mentioned above, I know what the front dovetail is for, and it's not for a scope base. It's for a graduated scale to sit in front of the windgauge globe so you can see how far you're moving the globe sight.
Don't think a 1/8" dovetail could possibly be considered strong enough for scope mounts. I think it might be possible the rear is for a spirit level specially made to fit the tiny dovetail, but can't see anything similar in Roy Marcot's book on these rifles.

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Do you have an example or picture showing what you are thinking with regards to the front dovetail? Most windage front sights have graduations already or am I missing something? And along those sample lines most front sights for long range rifles included a spirit level so why would you need a rear level? Which would be most inconvenient and difficult to focus on when your focusing on the front sight. Of course anything is possible and everyone has their own preferences.
My first thought was also scope mounts but I have discounted that because the dovetails are not very robust

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Vall,
remember that scopes or sight tubes of the appropriate period will slide in their mounts, so they will not require as strong a dovetail as other scopes. The symmetry of the dovetails front and back also speak to a scope or sight tube, but I agree they are mighty small dovetails for that purpose.

I have not seen a front sight of the type you describe. Perhaps some aftermarket thing cobbled together? But I haven't seen all of the front sights for Creedmoor rifles.

The rear dovetail for a sight level is a nonstarter. If you ever shoot Creedmoor, you know the only place for a level is right behind the front sight and preferably within the globe or hood. It might as well be under the barrel as right in front of the breech on top. You will never see it there when you are in the gun. I shoot a lot of Creedmoor and have used a bubble in the rear barrel sight dovetail on my #3 1874 even that much further forward, it is still absolutely useless.

I'll throw out one more less than satisfactory idea. A mirage band with some sort of wire hanger that would go around the front sight. But I don't like that idea much either and have never read of an oldtimer using a mirage band in a Creedmoor match back in the day. Such bands are illegal now.

It's a mystery with no readily apparent or totally satisfactory answer - at least so far.

You might post those photos on the Creedmoor 150 facebook page. Someone may have another idea. There are some very good historians of Creedmoor shooting that hang out there


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Originally Posted by LRF
Do you have an example or picture showing what you are thinking with regards to the front dovetail? Most windage front sights have graduations already or am I missing something? And along those sample lines most front sights for long range rifles included a spirit level so why would you need a rear level? Which would be most inconvenient and difficult to focus on when your focusing on the front sight. Of course anything is possible and everyone has their own preferences.
My first thought was also scope mounts but I have discounted that because the dovetails are not very robust

Lynn,
There's an early windgauge globe front sight shown in Roy Marcot's book on Remington Sporting Rifles, with no scale on the globe sight, and only a single center mark. So they used a separate bar dovetailed in front with a scale engraved on it. Also on p.62 of Rowe's book American Rifle Sights, where he explains the very early Long Range rifles used a "wind gauge mounted on the barrel in it's own dovetail in front of the sight".
The issue is that tiny rear dovetail. No mention of any of the windgauge front sights without a spirit level, as supposedly all came with spirit levels, even early guns.

Last edited by Vall; 11/01/21 05:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by BrentD
Vall,
remember that scopes or sight tubes of the appropriate period will slide in their mounts, so they will not require as strong a dovetail as other scopes. The symmetry of the dovetails front and back also speak to a scope or sight tube, but I agree they are mighty small dovetails for that purpose.

I have not seen a front sight of the type you describe. Perhaps some aftermarket thing cobbled together? But I haven't seen all of the front sights for Creedmoor rifles.

The rear dovetail for a sight level is a nonstarter. If you ever shoot Creedmoor, you know the only place for a level is right behind the front sight and preferably within the globe or hood. It might as well be under the barrel as right in front of the breech on top. You will never see it there when you are in the gun. I shoot a lot of Creedmoor and have used a bubble in the rear barrel sight dovetail on my #3 1874 even that much further forward, it is still absolutely useless.

I'll throw out one more less than satisfactory idea. A mirage band with some sort of wire hanger that would go around the front sight. But I don't like that idea much either and have never read of an oldtimer using a mirage band in a Creedmoor match back in the day. Such bands are illegal now.

It's a mystery with no readily apparent or totally satisfactory answer - at least so far.

You might post those photos on the Creedmoor 150 facebook page. Someone may have another idea. There are some very good historians of Creedmoor shooting that hang out there.
Not only the small 1/8" dovetail width, but the extremely shallow cut that would make the edges of that tiny dovetail very fragile, and easy to break with anything of any weight. The front being solely for the wind gauge bar is a no brainer, and since Rowe's book shows the sight and the separate windgauge, it's easy to see how that one works.
Good idea on posting at the Creedmoor 150 FB age. Maybe someone has seen an old gun with something located back in that position, and might shed light on this. Thanks.

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I finally made some time to get the stocks on my Remington Creedmoor rifle more finished, so they look more correct to what Remington finish was, and not the flat, plain, light color someone re-did on my rifle. I stripped the surface, and applied a reddish hue stain to the stock and forearm, and after a few coats I applied some Wipe On Poly. Only took a few coats as the stock grain was very closed grain and took it quickly. Let it dry for a couple weeks, and then rubbed it out with rottenstone, and then finished with Minnwax paste wax, and buffed the stocks out.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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